[filomeno]

> There will no popular support and the long term strategic implications make it untenable

People just want cheap prices for gas, oil... We don't care too much about what happens in Ukraine, we just want to pay our bills. Nobody is going to be cold or hungry just to harm Russia. Capitalism wouldn't exist otherwise, and capitalism is just what the EU is about.

[delegate]

I think you're not getting the full picture. A dictator with thousands of nukes has gone rogue, saying and doing crazy things, eg. is unpredictable. Capitalism works in peaceful times, it stops when tanks are rolling by.

[filomeno]

The only thing I remember, is that the only time nuclear weapons were used, it was not Russia nor the USSR. To me it doesn't look unpredictable at all: Ukraine has long been warned that joining NATO poses a threat to Russia and that they should remain neutral. Yet they decided to continue to provoke Russia (just for the interest of the US) and now they get what they were looking for.

[rnk]

Russia said don't join Nato or we'll destroy you, Ukraine. And then Russia attacks Ukraine anyway. So what would be different if Georgia, Ukraine, and the other smaller democratic survivors of the USSR join NATO? Russia will still want to attack them.

Edit - one more thing, Russia said it threatens us if NATO is right next door to us in Ukraine. So Russia wants to take over Ukraine, and they'll be right next door to NATO in Poland. They were already right next door to NATO.

[filomeno]

> Russia said don't join Nato or we'll destroy you, Ukraine. And then Russia attacks Ukraine anyway

They wanted some guarantee that Ukraine would remain a neutral country, and the response they got was that Ukraine was going to join NATO. Even more, NATO's secretary general said not only Ukraine can join NATO, but also, NATO's presence in eastern Europe was to be strengthened. If that was meant to avoid a military conflict, I think they were very wrong.

[drran]

RF is aggressor in Ukraine since 2014, but RF cannot win over Ukraine, thus RF has constant fear of losing the war with Ukraine, so they are so sensitive to any military or political help to Ukraine. Yes, RF wants for their target to be alone, while Ukraine don't want to be at 1:1 war with a much larger opponent.

[yonaguska]

Yep, I don't want to sound like a Putin apologist, but everything seems to point to Western escalation in this respect.

[nullifidian]

Independent countries joining defensive pacts is their internal business. Putin wants what he thinks is Russia's god ordained sphere of influence(imperialism), and what's more considers Ukraine as Russia's to rule(imperialism). Everything that was said, and different things were said to different audiences, were just distractions/post-decision excuses. It has nothing to do with defense, and everything to do with imperialism, and generations of indoctrination in it. Baltic states(already in NATO) are as close to Moscow as Harkiv. And defense wise Russia will be much weaker in the decades to come with an isolated economy. Putin wants a poor desperate and isolated North Korea like country, he doesn't want a prosperous Russia -- prosperity is not too compatible with authoritarianism.

[Ambix]

Exactly. And there still many people shocked by NATO'1999 bombarding of Serbia.

[drran]

RF invaded into Ukraine, so if Ukraine will join NATO, then Ukraine will leverage that and RF will be kicked out from Crimea and Donbass. This is THE problem for RF.

[filomeno]

How can a country that doesn't control its own territory, and has some ongoing struggles, join NATO in the first place? It's against the rules. Also, why would Russia be kicked out from Crimea and Dombass? Inhabitants from those places want to be independent from Ukraine, the same way Ukraine wanted to be independent from the USSR 30 years ago. And they should not be prevented from that.

[dragonwriter]

> How can a country that doesn’t control its own territory, and has some ongoing struggles, join NATO in the first place? It’s against the rules.

No, its not. Its against standards outside of the Washington Treaty that some member countries have suggested for membership, specifically to justify delaying the membership process for Ukraine and Georgia.

The present invasion seems to have shifted EU/NATO opinion among governments against Russia and toward Ukraine (and other states under Russian threat), perhaps most significantly in the places that have been most friendly to Russia and reluctant to support the countries they are threatening (Orbán’s Hungary, for instance), so that non-rule excuse may or may not continue to be operative.

[drran]

How Germany joined NATO?

Moreover, nobody asked Crimean nations anything. They are shot or moved to Siberia.

And I have bad news for Dumbass: Russia annexed Dumbass and eliminated independent Dumbassian nation.

[filomeno]

> Moreover, nobody asked Crimean nations anything. They are shot or moved to Siberia.

Well, they voted in a 2014 referendum.

[rodgerd]

I guess you managed to selectively edit out of your mind when Putin characterised the shape of post-1917 Russia as a mistake by Lenin.

He has been quite clear about his desire to invade and subjugate countries to re-create the Tsarist empire.

[filomeno]

I know. Everything Lenin did was wrong, except that in favor of the western interests.