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by rexstjohn 1592 days ago
The problem with incoming recessions is if everyone expects them, then everyone knows they are coming, so they price it in, then they go “well, we priced that in, so now we can go back to business as usual.”

It’s a reflexive system.

Honestly- unless something has demonstrably “broken,” such as Lehman or AIG collapsing, then nothing systemically has actually changed.

There is so much nonsense and speculative Austrian economic discourse every time the market hits a speed bump that you can’t actually rely on anything anyone says.

Here is the real test for you: “have you seen any major institutions fail, implode or go under?”

If not, we aren’t in trouble yet. The stock market and economy have incredible ability to make adjustments, rebalance and repair themselves when provided information and time.

Yes the federal reserve will raise interest rates.

But that doesn’t mean the entire economy will implode. It might just mean that resources are allocated from some sectors to others.

This information is almost entirely priced in now. Unless more surprises occur (unexpected rate hikes or rate hikes happening too fast, or more rate hikes announced or institutions randomly imploding because debt burdens too high, or Russia invades Ukraine) we are probably ok.

And then again; the federal reserve is not a passive actor. They might announce a rate increase, watch what happens, then change their minds if things correct too far.

Suddenly your Peter Schiff scenario changes under your feet as the federal reserve unleashes the flood gates after allowing a calculated cooling off in speculation.

So that’s it: Has anything failed yet? Any imploding banks? Did Russia invade? If not, we aren’t in crisis mode yet so just chill out and watch.

If you are worried about a crisis; watch for institutional failure as your signal that real crisis has arrived. Everything else is just hot air.

4 comments

It's funny how this is so exactly the the "heuristic that is almost always right", that is right now at the top of the front page.

You're basically saying that the average state of the stock market and the economy is to be average and not non-average. Ok, that's true by definition. The point is that people who have even marginally better understandings of how it plays out in the tail events can make enormous amounts of money. Even those people would agree that the average case is for there not to be an issue.

Market's are efficient, thinking that that means they are always right is a drastic misunderstanding of what EMH says. Were markets right in mid 2008? Clearly not. And people were specifically calling for and profited off of what happened.

I don't think OP said the market can't do unexpected things, just that there is no information to act out of the ordinary.

Take your example 2008, how would you use that information from the past to time the stock market today? Unless you have some information the rest of us don't have, you could be sitting on S&P Put options for the next 10 years.

The (few) people who profited in 2008 realized the subprime mortgages were rotten to the core before any media or masses knew what a subprime mortgage was.

This isn't comparable to the information we all have today that covid is here, interest is high, and russia is teeing up the border, which is already priced in.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of EMH. EMH doesn't say markets price some mythical society wide shared understanding of reality which only fails to be correct due to the speed at which it propagates. it simply prices all of the information (orders) into the market according to who is willing to make those orders, and at what volumes, which is generated entirely by individual actors who have assymentric information like the contrarians from 2008 you seem to be implying don't count for some reason. The information of those contrarians was efficiently priced at every point and yet the market was wrong for an extended period of time. there were financial institutions publishing this info as research. it wasn't some big secret. the market didn't price it because people didn't understand the arguments and therefore didn't act on it, just like today.

>This isn't comparable to the information we all have

there's no set of information we all have. plenty of people don't believe covid is real, and that russia is run by reptilian aliens. Markets efficiently value their "knowledge" just as much as anyone else's.

> because people didn't understand the arguments and therefore didn't act on it, just like today.

This is the point though. Like what today?

If you have some theory why the Market is mispriced I'm all ears, but saying "plenty of people don't believe covid is real, and that russia is run by reptilian aliens" isn't really an argument.

You are the one making the case that everyone else is wrong, so the burden of proof lies with you.

what major institution failed in the early stages of [1] the japan asset bubble or [2] the dot com bubble? Or farther back, the 1840s railroad mania or the south sea bubble?

credit bubbles often pop when some institution can't cover its obligations, but asset bubbles don't seem to need such a failure — and can deflate on their own.

No one ever could have predicted those things! Except for the large number of documented cases of people and institutions who did...
I'm not saying that crises aren't predictable — I'm pointing out that institutional failure isn't always a leading indicator (as in OP's argument).
sorry if it wasn't clear, I completely agree with you. I just feel like people make that argument in response to what you are saying and it's not a very good one
> Here is the real test for you: “have you seen any major institutions fail, implode or go under?” If not, we aren’t in trouble yet.

Everybody can see danger if there's a red flashing "DANGER" sign blaring.

The point is to be ready before you see that flashing sign and not get caught up in a mad scramble.

We're seeing the danger signs: inflating currency and families paying far more for living expenses.

Heed the warnings or not, but they exist.

evergrande