[lbacaj]

The best two books for engineers are

1) “How to win friends and influence people”

2) “Never split the difference”

The first one will teach you how to work with people. The second will teach you how to negotiate salaries, raises, and promotions among other things.

I don’t recommend many technical books because engineers can find all of that on the internet and are much more at risk of being bad at people stuff.

[jldugger]

> The second will teach you how to negotiate salaries, raises, and promotions among other things.

“Never split the difference” is a really good book, but I'm really confused by this context. The book is 90 percent 'how to encourage rational thinking in your counterparty.' The author's experience is in suicide prevention and hostage negotiation, where all you really want is the counterparty to do whats already in their best interest. Hence the focus on emotional IQ advice, like slowing down, mirroring, building trust, etc.

In contrast, salary negotiation is a completely different beast. The book has a single chapter on "classic" MBA negotiations, but the counterparty is far more well informed than you are, and engineered the entire process to favor them -- multiple candidates, salary bands, structured interviews.

Where this book shines in the business world is project management and resolving priority conflicts, where you need to build cross functional relationships built on trust.

[kqr]

Granted, I'm just a single data point, but I've applied Voss' recommendations when negotiating purchases, salaries, and daily with my children. It's really improved my negotiation skills across the board.

In fact, negotiation is about helping people realise what's in their best interest among the options out there, rather than the options they want to be out there. But people won't hear what the available options are until they're sure you've heard what they want the available options to be.

Another good book in the same vein is How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk. It's not just about children.

[avinassh]

Do you know any books which can help in salary negotiation?

[jldugger]

I mean, I've never used it but Fearless Salary Negotiation[1] is commonly recommended?

[1]: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com

[Scarblac]

"How to win friends and influence people" contains so much self-repetition that it should be easily compressible to four pages, no doubt many people on the Internet have done that. Read one of those instead.

[gassiss]

This reminds me of a communication professor I had. He claimed that, over time, professors have the ability to explain something simple in 5 minutes or 2 hours.

I think the point is, there's many ways to make a point. Communication is hard. Reading a four page overview of a book is not the same experience as reading the actual book. Neither is reading a four page overview written by somebody else.

I also didn't like Carnegie book for the same reason you mentioned, but I wouldn't dismiss it for that reason

[noiwillnot]

You can say the same for >95% of the "self-improvement" book market.

[Scarblac]

Yes but _How to win friends and influence people_ started that genre, and is an extreme example of the style. All those anecdotes...

[pengaru]

> 1) “How to win friends and influence people”

The folks I know who have this on their bookshelf tend to be dishonest, manipulative, self-centered pricks.

[olalonde]

They didn't read it then. I read it a while ago and from what I can remember there was nothing about manipulation or dishonesty. In fact I'm fairly sure manipulation and dishonesty were explicitly discouraged.

[pengaru]

I never read it cover to cover, but paged through some random parts and it certainly contained guidance away from authenticity and towards identifying and saying/doing the right things to achieve your goals.

It's not a bad thing to read though, but more in terms of understanding what your competition is reading and tools they're potentially weaponizing (lots of copies have been sold). Just like I recommended my sister at least skim The Game when she was frustrated by her post-divorce dating experiences, which based on her description were at least partially being influenced by assholes having read it.

[olalonde]

I feel like you might be unfairly judging the book by its cover (or title?). I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you can cite some examples of what you claim. I'd like myself to cite some passages where manipulation is explicitly frowned upon:

> Of course flattery seldom works with discerning people. It is shallow, selfish and insincere. It ought to fail and it usually does.

> Looking at the other person’s point of view and arousing in him an eager want for something is not to be construed as manipulating that person so that he will do something that is only for your benefit and his detriment. Each party should gain from the negotiation.

> The difference between appreciation and flattery? That is simple. One is sincere and the other insincere. One comes from the heart out; the other from the teeth out. One is unselfish; the other selfish. One is universally admired; the other universally condemned.

> If we merely try to impress people and get people interested in us, we will never have many true, sincere friends. Friends, real friends, are not made that way.

> If we are so contemptibly selfish that we can’t radiate a little happiness and pass on a bit of honest appreciation without trying to get something out of the other person in return - if our souls are no bigger than sour crab apples, we shall meet with the failure we so richly deserve.

> So let’s obey the Golden Rule, and give unto others what we would have others give unto us, How? When? Where? The answer is: All the time, everywhere.

> Be honest, Look for areas where you can admit error and say so. Apologize for your mistakes.

> Promise to think over your opponents’ ideas and study them carefully. And mean it. Your opponents may be right.

etc.

[panxyh]

He's not judging the book, but the type of people it might tend to attract.

[koonsolo]

I think the main message of the book is to "put yourself in the shoes of others". And that definitely does not create dishonest, manipulative, self-centered pricks.

In fact, that teaches people empathy.

[pengaru]

Empathy is an important part in understanding how to manipulate others. Without being able to put yourself into their perspective it's difficult to determine what actions will have which effects.

People over/misuse the word empathy, often conflating it with sympathy and/or compassion, when they're very different things.

A book can teach empathy while guiding people to be manipulative or exploitive of others. Just because you're able to see things from another's perspective (empathy) doesn't mean you'll give a damn about them or feel what they're feeling (sympathy).

[koonsolo]

I get your point indeed.

I'm not a psychologist or something, so this is my opinion. But once you have empathy, you must be a real psycho to not feel a damn at that point.

I cannot imagine having empathy but then totally lacking sympathy (in a sane person).

[pengaru]

Learning to separate empathy from sympathy with a conscious choice is part of adulting, a facet of establishing and enforcing (emotional) boundaries.

Those who lack that ability are quite vulnerable, it's one of the most rampantly exploited human flaws. "Bleeding Hearts" are a hugely exploited demographic, where people largely experience reactionary emotional sympathy and effectively lack empathy as a distinct observation they may then deliberate on what response is appropriate.

The psychopaths are the ones who either after deliberation never care, or can't even bother to deliberate on what they're seeing, which to the observer is tough if not impossible to disambiguate from a lack of empathy. Psychopathy is a pretty blurry thing though IMHO.

[ricardbejarano]

Chris Voss (Never Split the Difference) is largely responsible for my income level today.

Absolutely life-changing book.

He also made a MasterClass.com video course with the same content, if you'd rather watch than read.

[wink]

> 1) “How to win friends and influence people”

I found it kind of bad. Like, really bad. 50% 'oh my, this is common sense' and 50% 'so that's where the cliche of Americans thinking that we Germans are honest, direct and potentially abrasive come from.'

I mean, I don't want to discourage anyone from reading it, but I found it very lacking and when taken literally, a bit absurd.

[bigodbiel]

I’ve tried reading “How to Win Friends” and all I kept thinking was how it completely would never apply to a person such as myself.