[altgans]

I am a NixOS user, but am interested in Guix. Based on a cursory look I have some questions:

- How big is Guix on GNU? Does it throw wrenches in your way if you do anything "unfree"? How easy is it to install the nvidia-drivers? - How is the package ecosystem? 20.000 official packages seems a little low? Are there community packages? How easy it is to create your own packages? Why is the Neovim package only at version 4.4 [1]? Isn't version 5 officially released? - How good is the documentation? - Is there a project roadmap? Are there any issues preventing adoption?

[1]: https://guix.gnu.org/en/packages/neovim-0.4.4/

[assbuttbuttass]

As someone who's used Guix:

They only package linux-libre, so if your device needs proprietary wifi, you're out of luck. Also they package icecat instead of firefox which is kind of cool.

I tried to package slash'em a few years ago, and found it very difficult. The documentation is gigantic and it's hard to find what you're looking for. I found folks on IRC very helpful.

[ryukafalz]

>They only package linux-libre, so if your device needs proprietary wifi, you're out of luck.

I wouldn't say you're out of luck in that case. If you need upstream Linux, nonguix has it: https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix

[light_hue_1]

Oh yeah, nonguix. What a mess.

An unsupported pile of packages that break regularly. And if you dare ask a question about it in any official forum you're kicked out.

Nix has its issues, but guix is ideologically radical in a extremist "We don't care if your machine is unusable, enjoy your freedom", kind of way.

[rekado]

Wow. Not true.

You're not kicked out if you "dare" (how brave!) ask a question about it. You're welcome to chat about it on #nonguix. Is it really that hard to accept that #guix is not #nonguix and that we don't discuss proprietary software on the main channels?

[light_hue_1]

> You're not kicked out if you "dare" (how brave!) ask a question about it. You're welcome to chat about it on #nonguix. Is it really that hard to accept that #guix is not #nonguix and that we don't discuss proprietary software on the main channels?

So... if I go to the official channel to discuss guix and I said the forbidden word "CUDA" I get kicked off? You wrote a sentence in a tone that implies it disagrees with what I said, but it just restates my point.

Guix puts ideology over the welfare of its users.

[rekado]

"CUDA" is not a forbidden word. Where does that idea come from?

Here: CUDA, CUDA, CUDA!

If you go to the official channels and ask about CUDA people like me will likely tell you that CUDA is proprietary software, so we don't cater to it in Guix. If you then acted all offended and angry that would be the end of my interactions with you; otherwise I'd tell you the right venue to ask for help with CUDA without starting a discussion of proprietary software on our main channels.

If that's not good enough for you then we're working on incompatible assumptions of how communities work. If you think you're entitled to discuss whatever you want on the community's channels then you're going to have a bad time. Life must be hard demanding of other people to humor you when they really don't want to.

> Guix puts ideology over the welfare of its users.

No.

light_hue puts ideology over the welfare of the community.

PS: CUDA!

[xxpor]

There's two kinds of projects:

Those who care about ideology

And those that want things to actually work and get stuff done.

The second group is the one that wins all of the users. Of course, there's room for both types of projects in the world. But don't be surprised when people who don't want to waste time on a political discussion that doesn't effect their lives in any way don't want to put up with it.

[rekado]

> But don't be surprised when people who don't want to waste time on a political discussion that doesn't effect their lives in any way don't want to put up with it.

There are no political discussions about the merits of proprietary software on #guix or the Guix mailing lists. It's just not the right venue for that.

So, yeah, I wouldn't want to waste my time on discussions like that, and we effectively don't.

> And those that want things to actually work and get stuff done.

This is a false dichotomy, but if you don't see it this way I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

[civodul]

As with Debian, wifi devices are about the only thing you might have "troubles" with when opting for Linux-libre:

https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Hardware-Considerat...

[yewenjie]

Yes, the low number of readily available packages is the primary reason I switched from Guix to Nix.

[rekado]

The default channel of Guix has more than 21,000 packages. Is that what counts as a "low number" these days?

[michaelmrose]

People don't care about 21000 packages they care about say 5. An environment which has 5 has excellent software availability for that user. One that has 3 it has for that user poor availability.

Debian has far more packages but pure numbers are hard to compare when packages are broken up in different fashions and missing 1 package that 30% of users desire is more problematic than missing 1000 package that collectively 3% of users desire. More so if that 1 package is required for the users computer to work properly or indeed at all.

For a substantial number of users Guix has insufficient software availability and one notes that for example that for example Fedora which is very free software focused doesn't forbid you from discussing nonfree software in its channel. Elsewhere you tout that RMS wasn't allowed to remove clang from the package collection as if it were proof of value. Other distributions don't have benevolent dictators trying to remove useful free software for ideological reasons.

We are all habituated to what we perceive as normal. Neither situation is actually normal and indeed is sufficient reason by itself to ignore a superior product like GUIX and does a disservice to the cause of free software by decreasing the number of people willing to put up with it. I'd go so far as to say that without more liberal attitude from other player the entire free software movement would already be dead. A free software only default is perfectly fine as is acknowledging practical consideration to drive interest in free software in order to provide a larger base of people from which to draw potential contributors in order to continue to strengthen the base.

If GUIX is Debian than someone ought to just make a Ubuntu that largely ignores ideology and focuses on the practical.

[rekado]

> Elsewhere you tout that RMS wasn't allowed to remove clang from the package collection as if it were proof of value. Other distributions don't have benevolent dictators trying to remove useful free software for ideological reasons.

My point was that neither does Guix. But you do you.

[Filligree]

Well, I need CUDA so...

I'm aware of nonguix, but it seems to break a lot more than the same packages in nixpkgs.

[yewenjie]

For me coming from Arch and AUR, yes.

[zeec123]

And properitary drivers.

[rekado]

The "nonguix" repo has got you covered for all your vanilla Linux needs.

[zeec123]

No, it is an unofficial mess that breaks very often.