[snprbob86]

"All these companies want to do is turn your computing experience into a locked down, controlled, monitored experience."

Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom?

No. There fucking isn't.

I'm a huge believer in small, composable components. And I know that developing against closed platforms sucks. Being able to dig down into the source code of every layer of your stack is critical to the understanding necessary to build high quality software. Libre, Gratis, and Open are all key elements of the software I choose to use to do many mission critical jobs, every day of my professional career going forward.

But you know what?

The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them that damn good.

Freedom isn't free. There are costs associated with development, complexity, opportunity. Free is a strategy that only few can afford to execute. Google has to vary the gratis, libre, and open dials with their products every single day to paint the benevolent picture they count on to keep their recruiting pipelines full, while still building high quality products on time and budget.

My Girlfriend's Android phone (a highly rated model) is a horrible piece of crap next to the iPhone. It lags, crashes, has UX issues, flimsy hardware. The iPhone is a glorious, crowning achievement of engineering that still, years later, Microsoft and Google are struggle to replicate.

I'm no dumber for owning an iPhone. It gets the job done: It makes phone calls. It settles arguments at the bar. It lets me cut in line at Chipotle. It wakes me up in the morning. It keeps me entertained. It makes me smile every time that little orange plane animates by as it goes into airplane mode.

It just fucking works.

You want to talk about freedom? I'm free from thinking about memory management. And processor utilization. And data loss. If it stops working, I'm free from worry because the Apple store makes everything better. I am free from all of the horrible things that can go wrong on my production servers.

Unless something does go wrong on my production servers, in which case I'm free to be away from my desk when it happens. And I'm free to drive aimlessly without worrying about getting lost. I'm free to call a cab, when I just don't feel like walking home.

In context, my iPhone represents every last bit as much freedom as my blinking cursor in an empty vim window.

[josteink]

The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them that damn good.

It's very hard to read the rest of your comment and not have you mentally pre-positioned as a fanboy. I'm not saying this to be a troll, but because comments like this really do stand out. Would you give any other company this sort of slack you are now giving Apple? If so, why not?

And while that may not be such an interesting discussion in itself, I am not willing to support and hand over my money to someone acting against freedom of choice, because someone else on the internet says "Don't worry: These people are good guys. Really!"

Freedom isn't free.

Again. I would love to see anyone make this sort of defense for Oracle or Microsoft.

I'm no dumber for owning an iPhone

Maybe not dumber, but you have locked your mind to the most restrictive of the mobile OS platforms out there and the limited workflows it allows.

I would be very surprised if this didn't also limit your ways of thinking about how problems can be solved.

The iPhone is a glorious, crowning achievement of engineering that still, years later, Microsoft and Google are struggle to replicate.

Absolutely revolting fanboy talk. I tend to find the iPhone a glorified piece of needlessly heavy electronics running visually polished but annoyingly limited software, which fails at the most basic of tasks, like sending data from one app to another via something called "files".

You want to talk about freedom? I'm free from thinking about memory management. And processor utilization. And data loss.

So am I. On my Android phone. While my iPhone 3G had constant memory-problems because it wasn't built to multi-task. Oh well.

Why is it iPhone owners seems to default on Android being an immature platform, cite Android 1.6 problems, while any factual representation of the limitations found in current iOS releases is answered with "iOS next" and that is supposed to be a valid answer, free from hypocrisy?

Seriously. You guys need to get out of the Apple store more often. It may actually be starting to dumb you down.

[snprbob86]

> Would you give any other company this sort of slack you are now giving Apple? If so, why not?

I used to work for Microsoft. Although you'd have to dig back a couple years in my comment history, you'll find many posts where I defended Microsoft and explained some of the intricacies and complexities of building products for the customers that Microsoft really cares about.

I also used to work for Google, and somewhere in my comment history, I also defend the fact that Google isn't out to track your every move.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have chosen to defend only Apple in my original post. It weakened my argument because of the perception of being a fanboy. I think that all the same points apply to Microsoft and Xbox.

PC gamers shout about how consoles are trying to kill your freedom. You can't even use your own choice of team voice chat utility? OMG! OPPRESSIVE. But really, the locked down platform was easier and cheaper for Microsoft to develop than the wild west of PCs / Direct3D. I quit being a PC gamer, gave up some of my freedom to play mods, so that I'd have the freedom to install whatever new game came out without having to think about the specs of my PC.

Different value tradeoffs for different consumers, or even for the same consumers with different needs at different times! Different value tradeoffs for companies producing those products for those who make different value tradeoffs as consumers.

[dasil003]

Thought experiment: Is it possible to think Apple makes the best technology products without being a fanboy?

[josteink]

Oh absolutely. I have no doubt about that. In fact, saying anything else would be absurd.

However I think it's fair to recognize the difference between someone merely (very) happy about their Apple stuff and someone who seemingly is personally insulted when it is suggested that Apple is (shock!) a normal corporation following a normal corporation's need and desire to profit, doing some ethical comprosises on the way.

And looking at snprbob86's post here, it's full of seemingly personal feelings when discussing this topic. It's almost this short of saying "Dear sir. You have defiled my lovers honour and I challenge you to a duel".

I have to say he/she seems like the glorious, crowning achievement of the Apple PR-Department which is hellbent on making Apple-Products a matter of personal honour and identity. And it's very freaky to observe from the outside.

[aplusbi]

I think the key difference is the implication that Apple's sole intent is to make good products. The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. is very different from Apple makes damn good products.

[norswap]

"Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom?"

> No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom.

"The people at Apple just want to make damn good products. They are proud as hell of those products. They work very hard to make them that damn good."

> Yeah... As an aside I think Apple is overrated. It's interfaces are nifty but as seen with Lion they're not above a misstep. Plus while they offer a very nice first-time ("store") experience, with time it's edge over the other OS slowly fades. You have to learn all the keyboard shortcuts or you'll be a bit helpless in your shiny OS.

Even hardware which tends to be quality can fail, as witnessed with graphic cards overheating problems for instance.

"My Girlfriend's Android phone (a highly rated model) is a horrible piece of crap next to the iPhone. It lags, crashes, has UX issues, flimsy hardware. The iPhone is a glorious, crowning achievement of engineering that still, years later, Microsoft and Google are struggle to replicate."

> Anecdotal evidence does not make a general truth. I for one have had the exact opposite experience. I had an iPhone 3G and with the new firmware the thing was a trainwreck of usability, while my new Samsung Galaxy S2 is snappy as hell. This is essentially irrelevant, as it has to do with computing power more than product quality (tough I get more bang for my computing power in Android, the iphone firmwares have brought me copy/paste and ... what ?).

[snprbob86]

Side note: Please do not use "> " for your reply. That is generally reserved for quoting what you are replying to.

> No but I honestly thinks there are people sitting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your money, even if it entails taking away your freedom.

Sure, there is some dude somewhere who only cares about driving up the quarterly numbers. But generally Apple has a pretty long record of shipping premium products at a premium price and selling them with a "buy it or don't" attitude. With the possible exception of those damn video adapters, I've never felt like Apple was trying to squeeze money out of me. Sure, they had to play the DRM game with iTunes and let's not even get into the bullshit that the telcos get away with. But, as a composite entity, Apple has been pretty damn respectful of it's customers.

> Yeah... As an aside I think Apple is overrated.

Different tastes for different people. Go ahead, buy whatever product you like. Just don't accuse a team of hard working, talented people of being out to take your freedom.

> It's interfaces are nifty but as seen with Lion they're not above a misstep.

I'm quite happy with the improvements in Lion.

> Plus while they offer a very nice first-time ("store") experience, with time it's edge over the other OS slowly fades. You have to learn all the keyboard shortcuts or you'll be a bit helpless in your shiny OS.

I've used a Windows machine since before I could speak. I worked for Microsoft for several years. I now cringe every time I have to touch the one Windows box at our office.

> Even hardware which tends to be quality can fail, as witnessed with graphic cards overheating problems for instance.

And you've never had a component on your other machines fail? shrug When the machine I built had a power supply failure, I had to go fucking replace it. I was free to use whatever power supply I wanted, but I wasn't free to use my damn computer for the four days I waited for my new component. When my iMac had a buzzing noise, they replaced it in the store in under an hour.

> I had an iPhone 3G and with the new firmware the thing was a trainwreck of usability

Freedom isn't free. Making that new software compatible with that old hardware costs time and money. They did a decent job to appease the tiny cross-section of people who upgrade software, but don't upgrade hardware. Most people don't even know what a software upgrade is, so their old OS version is running just fine on the hardware it was tested against. In general, those who do care about having the latest and greatest can afford a phone upgrade.

> tough I get more bang for my computing power in Android

Who cares how much bang you get? It does the same stuff. Again, it's clear you value different things.

Look, I'm not gonna respond further because as far as I'm concerned, I've made my point: It's not right to personify corporations as evil simply because they don't match your personal taste. It's insulting to the people who work really fucking hard and take great pride in the (not so) small impact they leave on the world.

[vacri]

When the machine I built had a power supply failure, I had to go fucking replace it. I was free to use whatever power supply I wanted, but I wasn't free to use my damn computer for the four days I waited for my new component.

vs

When my iMac had a buzzing noise, they replaced it in the store in under an hour.

So "sitting on my arse doing nothing, I had to wait four days for a replacement" versus "I physically took my machine to the Apple store and they gave me a replacement at the same time".

These are purposefully selective anecdotes. With your first repair, you yourself could have gone to a store - just like you did with the iMac, only not having to carry the damn thing - and got a power supply in five minutes, taken it back to the office, and had it installed and back up in half an hour. Computer stores and power supplies are as common as muck - unless your desktop PC is really weird, you'll find something suitable by simply throwing a brick.

Total time spent in process for each 'go to shop' scenario? Less than an hour plus travel time. And with the non-imac one, you don't even have to ferry the computer around. All in all, a pretty similar experience.

Unless of course your anecdote is even less fair and the 'four day wait' was for a server part.

It's insulting to the people who work really fucking hard and take great pride in the (not so) small impact they leave on the world.

People who work hard and take pride in the (not so) small impact they leave can still be doing a bad thing, even though they're full of good intentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations (This link is just a strong example, I'm not trying to draw a parallel)

[snprbob86]

Both repairs were free (err...gratis) warrantee replacements by the manufacturer. Of course I could have paid for a new component or repair at a local computer shop.

> can still be doing a bad thing, even though they're full of good intentions.

Totally agree. I just don't think they are doing a bad thing either. No one is forcing you to buy a locked down device. No one is forcing you to make a particular freedom tradeoff. Buy whichever product you like for whichever reasons you like. But just be cognizant of the tradeoffs and their costs without making value judgements about those who make different tradeoffs, both as consumers and as producers.

[vacri]

But just be cognizant of the tradeoffs and their costs without making value judgements about those who make different tradeoffs, both as consumers and as producers.

I agree about the consumers bit - what's good for me may not be good for you - but don't agree about the producers. We should be able to raise constructive criticism if we see a producer as damaging - and I think the exhortation to 'leave them alone, they work hard' isn't right.

[vacri]

Also: On the repair front, how long would you have been waiting for Apple to come to your office and replace the faulty part? :)

[josteink]

Just don't accuse a team of hard working, talented people of being out to take your freedom.

Are you saying the people working on Android, Metro and platforms not owned by Apple are not talented or hard working? If not, why is the manner in which Apple people are working really relevant?

You are simply evading the point. It seems like to you, your ownership of Apple devices is a personal obligation to defend Apple from its "enemies". It isn't. Again I am forced to asked why you are doing this. It taints the rest of your argument and makes everything you do sound awfully much like zeal, and not like a rational opinion.

[snprbob86]

> Are you saying the people working on Android, Metro and platforms not owned by Apple are not talented or hard working?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was simply taking Apple as an example. The original article was about iOS and I think it's fair to say that from the original commenter's perspective, Apple is out to get your freedom.

I, in fact, was a contributor to Windows Phone 7. I worked damn hard to get the XNA deployment and debugging to work super smoothly. I'm supper proud of my small contribution to that product.

However, the Win Phone platform offers just a tiny bit more freedom of hardware choice. And that comes with a cost. I can tell you that having a dozen potential devices floating around the office, with varying graphics cards and other specs, was very time consuming for development. The first Win Phone 7 would have been much more timely if there was a single hardware platform locked down much earlier in the development schedule.

As for Android, it's further down the spectrum. You hear about fragmentation and whatnot. There are very real costs associated with the flexibility that platform offers. Freedom isn't free. Sometimes it is worth it. For some people, like myself, I choose a different type of freedom for my phone.

[tomkr]

Spot on. When people throw "freedom" into the discussion they often fail to understand just how big the concept is. Every choice made in engineering restricts some kinds of freedom. What about the freedom to press fewer buttons? Some people prefer that over the freedom of file management. As long as people can make these kinds of trade-offs, they are still free to do what they want.

I find it much nicer to use the term autonomy, which can be seen as "meaningful freedom". To some people having a commandline interface (which they do not know how to operate) is not a meaningful freedom to have at all.

[bsphil]

"If it stops working, I'm free from worry because the Apple store makes everything better."

You should've just said 'I love Big Brother.'

[pessimizer]

Yes, I do that there are a number of people at Apple spending a large part of their days figuring out how to prevent people from using their own purchased items in the way that they wish to. Lawyers, programmers, and PR people.

[eavc]

The hyperbolic indignation is not needed. This is not Reddit.

[pointyhat]

I agree with the OP:

> Oh, bullshit. Do you really think there is someone siting around at Apple dreaming up new ways to take away your freedom?

Yes - more precisely they are working out new ways to charge you for it.

We're slowly being led into paying incrementally for utility computing on a device we actually paid up front for.

Only a fool buys something then pays to use it.

[Akuma]

> Only a fool buys something then pays to use it.

You mean like buying any of the following:

  * A car (fuel, tires, a bunch of other stuff)  
  * _Any_ cellphone (either a monthly fee or pre paid)  
  * Clothes (I sure hope you wash them?)  
  * _Any_ electrical appliance (electric bill you know...)  

(and the list goes on...)

Yeah. A fool indeed...

[pointyhat]

What you describe are "appliances". Single purpose items.

Computers, are by nature interchangeable with respect to their use at the whim of the user, without cost. They serve many purposes interchangably.

What I am concerned about is that a cost for changing purpose is being programmed (excuse the pun) into the users, converting them from users into consumers.

Consider the case of a Leatherman tool. Would you buy one if it had a couple of useless tools supplied with it and you found out when after you bought it that you have to buy all the good ones? Also the screwdriversr can only be used with Apple-licensed screws and you have to turn them the wrong way.

[scott_s]

The iPad is computer-as-appliance.