[pgwhalen]

Java’s verbosity/abstraction problem is unfortunately not due to the language or libraries at this point as much as it is the programmers - the hardest thing to change. You need only to look around this thread to see Java programmers who can’t imagine writing a useful application without a DI framework that supports runtime implementation swapping, or aspect oriented programming.

[bedobi]

Agreed! I lost patience with the backwards Java community long ago, there's no arguing with them, they refuse to even consider trying anything other than what they're used to, so what's the point. Better to move on and leave them to it.

[pgwhalen]

One thing that gives me hope is that the actual language designers have the right view on it, and I think are guiding the community in the right direction without explicitly condemning the way a lot of things are currently done (which would be a political nightmare).

For instance, records are a step away from mindless getters and setters - but rather than just add the syntactic sugar of properties, they introduced immutability as well.

[bedobi]

For sure, it's great that people like Josh Bloch, Brian Goetz (and many others) have been very aware of and trying to address all the problems and endorse (and enforce) solutions to them (for decades at this point)

but as much as I hate to say it it feels like it's a bit too little too late :/

and there's still this bizarre situation where seemingly most of the Java community is still living in the 90s

oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯