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by crispypotatoes 1606 days ago
> They want it so much they are even willing to forego hostilities to the 'other' group of unvaccinated people

I find it interesting you use the word 'other' here, as usually this is said when trying to frame a dehumanisation argument, where the 'other' is a suppressed minority of sorts

As someone that holds this opinion (sod the unvaccinated) and has done since the start of people doing this, I'm not surprised other people are now starting to go 'you made your bed' with this one

The thing is, being unvaccinated is a choice and if you want to make that choice then go for it

However, that choice has contributed to the deaths of people I know and extending the general disruption of the world for months on end for no other reason that unsubstantiated scepticism

You can make that choice but as the article says, do NOT expect the rest of the world to respect it when it's blindingly obvious it's a really dumb choice to make for absolutely no gain to you or anyone around you

When you see your mates grandmas dying and people are actively refusing the vaccine, I quite frankly do not care what happens to them, as they didn't care what happened to the people I know who have died

3 comments

I intentionally used the term 'other' because I wanted to highlight how tribal people tend to get about things; there is an in group and an out group and terrible things can, will, and (horrifyingly) ought to happen to the out group.

I try to keep my tribal sensibilities in check by reframing everyone I am considering as a part of my own tribe. Obviously, there are exceptions for violent criminality which I apply a strategic empathy for (understand as fully as possible while still condemning the actions). The boundary of who gets what treatment is fuzzy if I really thought about it, but pragmatically this model serves me well. But that's my own personal stance fueled from experiences and research.

My friends draw their tribal circles more narrowly, which is their prerogative. I like to listen to how they engage with the world because it helps me understand how they think and what their influences are. They are more willing to allow state hostility/violence against people who are the other (the 'worthy victim' under the propaganda model). I sometimes point out that what powers you give the state will be wielded by the other party as well.

The fact that my friends are saying who cares, let's just go back to normal is an interesting signal IMO. While the narrative is still 'make things uncomfortable (by disregarding constitutional rights and social norms)' they are seemingly okay with 'it's your life and your choice.'

My friend group is not a representation of society as a whole. They do make up a large part of my social reality. This is an important data point for me but it's much less so for everyone else. Still, I felt compelled to share!

I think the tribal thing is interesting but a meaningless distinction when it's such an easy choice like this

The tribes are essentially people refusing free vaccines for no reason vs people who are vaccinated to protect themselves/others

This is one of the easiest cut and dry examples I could think of to justify in-group/out-group behaviour, you shouldn't be forced to tolerate or associate with people making deliberately bad decisions

You could extend this argument to drunk drivers and I think it would hold just as little weight

> However, that choice has contributed to the deaths of people I know

It was not a choice many people took to get the virus prior to vaccine availability, and these people would be taking extra risk to get vaccinated (excluded from trials) so you are spewing rage at them for what? Because of an error of incorrect application of priors?

Availability has nothing to do with what I've said and I think you know I'm not speaking to that group

If you have access and you deliberately turn it down over nothing AFTER the trial phase, that's who I'm raging at

>deliberately turn it down over nothing AFTER the trial phase

Not as an argument against the vaccine, but maybe to help enlighten why many have chosen not to get vaccinated; keep in mind that the FDA approval letter for the Pfizer vaccine indicates that long term testing is not projected to be complete until June 2025. https://www.fda.gov/media/151710/download

The same thing is being said about long COVID

Either way, you're risking long-term side effects, I'd rather go with the tried and tested technology we have here

Recovered people were excluded from trials so conclusion of trials says nothing for them. What percent of vaccine holdouts do you reckon have already been infected? If that is a significant percentage, realize your anger is being channeled into restrictions against these people you are not speaking to.
> What percent of vaccine holdouts do you reckon have already been infected?

I'm not going to sit here and guess

You have the information to work this one out yourself if you like and none of these comments make any sense mate

So you don't have those numbers on hand? It seems crucial, if 100% of unvaccinated have already recovered then what is to be gained by vaccinating now?
> It seems crucial, if 100% of unvaccinated have already recovered then what is to be gained by vaccinating now?

Except we know this isn't the case at all lmao

Elsewhere in the thread it's stated in AUS that 50% of COVID admissions are from the 8% unvaccinated population, that's about enough to prove the point here and I don't need to go any further

You're also seeing more and more cases like this crop up - https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/frighten...

Vaccines work. They reduce severity, transmission and the chance of death.

It's on you to prove your point with some actual facts now, instead of more questions missing the point entirely.

> I find it interesting you use the word 'other' here, as usually this is said when trying to frame a dehumanisation argument, where the 'other' is a suppressed minority of sorts

Interesting, maybe, but definitely correct. The unvaccinated are routinely dehumanised and you even do so in your own comment.

> The unvaccinated are routinely dehumanised and you even do so in your own comment

They can quite easily change this one by getting vaccinated, people can't with their skin colour

They're people, just very stupid people who have made their own bed and now need to lie in it

I'm not advocating executing them but I just don't give a fuck about them any more and there is a BIG difference

I forgot to finish that point - TL;DR false equivalency, reap the consequences etc.

> I'm not advocating executing them but I just don't give a fuck about them any more

Thank you very much! Upvoted. That's exactly what we've been asking for. Some of us may have a chance to see the light of another day now. See [0] for obligatory C.S.Lewis quote. I'm really, really happy that you're not willing to push through to an actual extermination stage! I may get my brain un-freeze, my thinking ability back, my psychotic attacks subside, and who knows, I may find the reason to get a jab.

[0] https://www.azquotes.com/quote/349305?ref=robber-baron

Would you make the same point about religious persecution? After all, unlike skin colour, you can easily change your belief.
> Would you make the same point about religious persecution?

Yes, if your religion caused you to harm people by just being near them because it is optional

Again, it's more false equivalency

Some religions require you to not even look at a woman that isn't covered, they need to go and live in an area where that's supported rather than expecting wider society to support that stupid standard

It's funny how you're finding more and more excuses about how your hate for this one group of people is different from anything else. Because it's always different; that's just how tribalism works.
What’s your point? How do you want people to think about the unvaccinated?

I’m sympathetic to the idea of not hating others, but it seems like you are beating around the bush here a bit.

> your hate for this one group of people is different from anything else

I don't hate them, I find them stupid and irresponsible

It's interesting that you're pulling the moral outrage card after you've asked about this and found my beliefs consistent

If there's a choice presented to you of "do X thing and don't harm others, or don't and risk harming others" and you pick the 2nd, you're the one in the wrong, plain and simple