[jcranmer]

> it seems clear that there was a catastrophic fall in science

Name one scientific discovery that was known in Late Antiquity that was not known in the Medieval period.

This is easier to do for technology, but that shouldn't be misconstrued as part of a generalized collapse of civilization. A large part of technology requires passing knowledge from individual to individual via a kind of apprenticeship, so if something stops happening for a few generations, it's easy to be lost. To use a very recent examples: battleships. We can't make battleship-grade steel armor anymore, because no one's been making it for several decades. But that's not because we've somehow "regressed" in technology--it's just that battleship-grade steel armor has no use anymore, so we stopped making it.

The major decline associated with the Roman Empire is the decline in administrative capacity of the state. And yes, this does bring economic depression and deurbanization, and also loss of several civic engineering techniques. You don't see a decline in scientific knowledge--after all, medieval people were using the same textbooks the Romans were. Maybe there's a pause in development of new scientific knowledge, but it also has to be remembered that the Romans themselves weren't all that prolific in science (as compared to technology). As for technology, well, by the 600s, there's already new technologies kicking about that the Romans never had.

And that's why people push back against the kind of claims embodied by the dumb graph (https://goingmedievalblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/worst.... )--it's just not actually borne out by the evidence.

[allturtles]

> Name one scientific discovery that was known in Late Antiquity that was not known in the Medieval period.

I mean that's not hard to do unless your point is that they were rediscovered in the later centuries of the Medieval period. Almost all of Aristotle, all of Ptolemy, all of Archimedes was unknown in the Christian West for centuries.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

Losing some texts by ancient authors doesn't mean some knowledge or technology was lost.

Aristotle is actually quite useless in medieval day to day life, so losing his texts is a big deal for a person studying ancient Greece, but not at all for a 650 AD ruler, blacksmith or trader.

[allturtles]

The people who rediscovered the texts certainly thought they had found something new and astonishing. It wasn't, oh that ptolemy, he's old hat. Aristotle became the centerpiece of philosophy.

Usefulness to daily life is a whole other different metric, and not what gp asked.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

Gp was talking about scientific discoveries, and of those none were lost. Aristotle didn't make any discoveries, he just had some ideas, which were totally useless in the medieval Europe. That uselessness is the reason they were lost: simply nobody cared to preserve them. Metalworking, hydraulics of the time, building methods were all very useful and were preserved. The only 'lost' technology is probably Roman concrete, which required some highly specific ingredient. But that's about it.

[qwytw]

There was a significant decline in certain areas at least in Western Europe both in building methods and metalworking based on archeological evidence. After urban populations collapsed there simple was no demand for large complex buildings, metal statues etc. Of course most the knowledge was preserved in the part of the Roman empire that survived and in other pockets and by the high middle ages Europe had well surpassed it's Roman high economically and technologically.

[allturtles]

You're conflating scientific knowledge and the practical arts. There is lots of scientific knowledge in Aristotle and the other authors I mentioned. e.g. Aristotle's physics. We would now consider it wrong, but those who rediscovered it didn't think so.

Even in the category of practical arts, though, you're mistaken. Check out the writings of Hero of Alexandria or Vitriuvius. Check out the waterwheels at Barbegal. Pick any major civil engineering project like the aqueducts, baths, roads, or arenas of ancient Rome. There is no equivalent until the cathedrals of the later middle ages.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

There is no equivalent only because there were no economy that could afford such projects. Kingdoms were much smaller and couldn't waste resources on grandiose vanity projects. People certainly knew how to make an aqueduct, or a road.

As for arenas, they came out of fashion with the rise of the Christianity. You know, publicly feeding early Christians to lions didn't help popularize this type of entertainment.

Also, all this knowledge was very well alive in Constantinople, so any rich ruler who wanted to build a replica of Hagia Sofia could just hire someone from there. The only problem, there weren't any such rulers who had enough resources.

Regarding Barbegal waterwheels, what do you suggest checking? Waterwheels were abundant in all medieval Europe, this knowledge was never lost.

[jahewson]

> Maybe there's a pause in development of new scientific knowledge

Isn't that exactly what the "dumb graph" you link to is showing? The y-axis is labelled scientific "advancement", not knowledge.