Depends. A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes.
Cost of living has been increasing at rates that engineer compensation has not kept up with at all, especially in cities.
In many EU countries, you get 35 days of paid vacation mandated by law, along with 6 months to over a year of maternity and paternity leave. In the US, you get no such guarantee, and undercurrents of the Protestant work ethic are very well and alive in our culture. Sometimes new hires are expected to not take any paid vacations for the first first year of their employment. There's also a strain of private authoritarianism when it comes to employment in the US, by default, some employers treat their employees like property, and can seemingly dictate the terms of employees' off-time. Stemming from this are expectations of being on-call, but without the benefits of things like accruing overtime, being paid time and a half or with handsome bonuses that workers elsewhere tend to demand. All in all, workers' rights in the US are dismal compared to many first-world countries.
Truthfully, if I were younger and didn't have ties to the US, I would look into emigrating to the EU if they'd take me.
> A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes
How does that work when (most? all?) healthcare packages often have ~3-7k max out of pocket fees per year?
Probably what happens is that in your health emergency you suddenly discover that your specific problem won't be covered because it's expensive enough that some small print kicks in.
Social atomization, hyperconsumerism and a generally blighted physical environment (who-gives-a-fuck suburban sprawl nearly everywhere) are what define your life in most parts of this country, if you don't earn a high enough salary to offset their effects. That, and the relentless "life == work" mentality exhibited even in other comments in this thread.
Lest I come across as a glass half-empty person, let me mention a few things about this country that I genuinely like and which rare (if not unique) throughout the world:
(1) Genuine ethnic diversity (simply unmatched in its breadth and scale), and a genuine, bedrock belief that (at least in principle) if you're a citizen you have a right to be here and to live your own life, dammit whatever your ancestry, religious belief, however you dress, etc. The fact that the racism which does exist is so virulent comes in part from the fact that it is a minority view.
(2) Truly awesome natural beauty, also very diverse (what's left of it anyways)
(3) Pioneering in LGBTO and abortion rights while much of the world remains a frightening place indeed in these respects.
(4) A away of looking at life in the large and as full of possibility which has brought many bad things but also Jazz, Rock'n'Roll, amazing cinema, etc.
Sorry but this just feels like you've never left the US:
1) The diversity may be partially right, but even if you are a citizen there still is enough discrimination especially against black people than in many first-world countries
2) Okay I grant you that, for a single country the US is very beautiful, mostly because of its sheer size. That's not to say there aren't beautiful spots in other countries though, there just cannot be as many
3) LGBT and abortion rights while there still is the bible belt, people blocking planned-parenthood institutions, and a significant part of the government actively trying to ban abortions and same-sex marriages, partially successful
4) The new world perspective through the rise of a new country only a few hundred years ago lead to lot's of innovation, but it is an illusion that the USA is the only country where any innovation and creativity happens
In brief: of course there are many shameful / antagonizing aspects to the culture here. But the broader undercurrent of acceptance here (rather than tolerance as in most countries) gives grounds for optimism, if you choose to embrace it.
The USA is the only country where any innovation and creativity happens.
That is absolutely not what I said and of course this isn't true. And I wouldn't even say is broadly "more" creative in any sense. But there is a certain "largeness" to the creativity -- and in the force of will in certain disempowered groups -- here, which I believe is quite special.
Which is why, in a few short years starting around 1969-1970, you had tens of thousands, then more, taking to the streets in NYC and SF saying, basically: "We are people, too, dammit -- and we are not going back". Whereas just a few years before they were almost universally considered to be outright deviants, if not mentally ill, with no prospect of living anything other than a life on the margins, perpetually in fear for their jobs, of arrest and beatings, and estrangement from their families.
Along with giving the world Steve Jobs, Star Trek, Soul Train, Dolly Parton, etc.
> (1) Genuine ethnic diversity (simply unmatched in its breadth and scale)
Brazil matches and surpasses, as far as I know
Edit: a quick google search indicates this is a controversial topic, to say the least
Also, kudos for recognizing that this is a valuable characteristic of a place for quality of life. Genuine ethnic food restaurants, a wide variety of interesting events and festivals, diverse influence in music and cultural hightlights... it does make a lot of difference for people attuned to its effects
I'm in Canada and the US is very appealing to me. More money, more personal freedom, better healthcare, more choice of food and other goods. I understand there is lots of disparity and some people are very badly off there, and I hear bad things about certain cities (but I'd want to do my own research before I believe what I read online). Overall though, if you're well off, the US is very appealing.
Just to add, recent events have made the US even more appealing, but the "brain drain" from canada is very real and people have been moving to the US to make a better life for themselves for decades. I don't believe anything has changed
We moved from Toronto to Florida at the beginning of last year. Could not be happier with the decision. The US used to be much more of a monolith, now there are huge differences between the states.
All of Canada is still in a mass hysteria that will continue for years.
I moved from New York to Florida a few months ago and feel much the same. I have previously lived in Toronto and always thought of it as like New York but worse.
Every day that I live in Florida feels like one of the best decisions I've made in my life so far.
That said, the US has never been the best place to live.
Copenhagen beats every city I've ever been to by miles.
Could you tell me what you found interesting about Florida?
I am currently in the Midwest and deciding where to go next, specifically back to the West Coast where I lived for a decade, or branch out to another warm state (FL, TX).
Weather, roads that more than support the amount of traffic, variety of activities, quality of local produce, balanced political temperament (there's a roughly even left-right split but the local politics are fairly centrist rather than the extremes of national politics), local politicians aren't obviously corrupt (as opposed to Cuomo/Adams/De Blasio) or obviously absolute fucking morons (De Blasio) either, favorable tax structure, favorable civil liberties legislation.
As a foreigner? Yes, you need government approval which is extremely difficult to get. You can as a permanent resident after some years.
It's certainly a hot market as well, but there are a number of different options for financing. If your job is good enough it's certainly achievable and most of my software engineer friends there own their apartments.
Yes, I think the difference has been much more clear recently. Both countries have hysterical people, but in Canada everyone is forced to go along with the lowest common denominator whereas in the US you appear to have much more freedom to ignore them
Ran into alot of Canadians in Miami at the end of 2021, they were more political than the Americans! Looked like they were enjoying themselves though, just wish those particular people could just be present and not worry about whats happening in other states and their country.
Seemed more like shell shock from recently escaping and needing to find a way to stay in Florida, which can be difficult.
This is big to me (and not in a "muh freedum!" way). My perception is that in the US, you can just do something. Start a business. Start a political party. Start a protest. Change your name. Change your face. Change your profession. Change your religion. Change your gender. Some of those may be non-trivial, and you have no guarantee of success, but you can do them in the US easier than you can anywhere else.
I said "my perception", because I haven't lived anywhere else, so... yeah. My perception.
My perception is you can't even skip mowing your lawn without vist from local Karens claiming you are destroying their property value.
I think if you actually attempt almost any of the things you listed you'll rough some feathers of people in that space and they will retaliate, because USA freedoms rely on lack of central control that allows inordinate amount of local bullying.
Off topic, but why is this term even remotely acceptable? If this was used to refer to an ethnic minority then everyone would be screaming "racist". Not to mention it's also sexists.
As a Canadian living in the US, here is my experience:
Advantages
- Higher Salaries (as a SWE, but similar for friends in other high skill professions)
- Faster, more accessible healthcare
- Easier access to COVID vaccines/boosters
- Access to more products/services
- Amazon has everything
- Better credit card perks
Disadvantages
- Actually using healthcare is expensive
- Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare)
- Way more advertisements (billboards, credit card offers, drug ads)
- Banking is way more fragmented
- The wealth gap is visibly wider (rich areas are slightly nicer, poor areas are far worse)
> Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare)
While this might be unusual, as I understand it, nothing really prevents you from getting your own insurance. Even if your health insurance premium were to cost $1000/month (which it likely doesn't), if your pay bump would be > $12k/year (+ tax) by moving as a SWE (which it probably would be), you could still go without a job for a whole year and still maintain your insurance. It would obviously be infeasible for someone in a profession with much lower income, but from what you said it sounds like it would be an option.
It has been a while since I've lived in the US, but I think it is completely possible to pay $1000/month for health insurance. For a single person, a family is more. Employers subsidize your insurance, after all. I was paying couple hundred a month for two people - subsidized - and that was years ago. A family plan was even more.
Even then, you have to have money to use it. On top of the insurance premiums, you'll have to pay a deductible. You'll probably pay $3000 (more or less) before the insurance even starts to pay anything, and then you'll have to pay a few thousand more before things start being free.
Prescriptions probably won't count towards these totals. If you are lucky, you will have good coverage. If not, you might be out a few hundred a month for a single drug. Depending. I mean, people have been rationing insulin.
> It has been a while since I've lived in the US, but I think it is completely possible to pay $1000/month for health insurance.
I just looked on healthcare.gov, and any plan that is comparable to a plan an employer would give you costs over $900 a month in premiums alone. The plans start to get "good", if you can call them that, at $1k. The last time I used COBRA, my premiums were $2k.
Oh, for a family it can definitely be more; I was citing numbers for a single person. For a single person it depends on your age I think. If you're young then it doesn't need to be anywhere near that high, but it of course gets higher as you get older.
It'll be barely below $1k for a single person, no matter the age, and it'll be considerably worse than employer-provided insurance. Young folks generally cannot afford health care, even with insurance.
Most Canadians would have to leave if they didn’t have another job anyway for visa reasons. Those 60 days would be difficult though. I’m assuming non-US citizens or PRs can’t use COBRA?
Partially. Depending on the Visa, Canadians need to leave within n days. However, it's extremely easy to re-enter as a visitor (B-2) and stay for 6 months.
Unless you are in the Bay Area, NYC, or similar, the salaries aren't that much higher. You also have to weigh that against the lack of social services. Sure you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, but that can be easily wiped away by a major medical event or chronic illness. By very few measures is the US the best place to live, but those indices also combine large swaths of very different regions.
FYI, I currently live in SF, but have worked elsewhere in the US and made considerably less. Maybe the difference isn't so stark now with the rise of remote work. But I do think remote work will ultimately lead to another wave of outsourcing, especially as the barrier for tech continues to decrease.
Yes. Strong IP. Colossal market. Access to capital. Talent pool. State of the Art R&D. As well as the culture of "doing big things" ;)
But there is a major headwind in location / real estate / cost of living. I was really intrigued by a recent poster who said $150k was enough for a 3 year run rate for their entire team in India!
Higher?? You'd have to be joking. When most people need several jobs to make ends meet?
When there is no single-payer health-care for the average joe? When a brief visit to an emergency room will set you back thousands. And if you don't have a job, it's very probable that you won't have any health insurance either. In other countries, a you can have a triple cardiac bypass for zero out-of-pocket expenses.
When people have very little paid holiday leave per year, if at all? In some countries, they get four to six weeks holiday per year, paid at normal (or higher) wage rates.
When waiters and waitresses have to survive on what tips they get, instead of getting a reasonable living wage and tips are extra on top.?
When many roads, bridges, schools, hospitals are in bad states of disrepair because there is no money for the infrastructure?
When many of the country's airports look like 1960s hangovers from the third-world. Have you seen modern airports in the Middle East or Asia?
The US is nowhere near the 'best place to live'. Sorry.
Very large place and most of its advantages don't require being here.
For developing nation immigrants, US can be appealing.
For natural/existing US citizens, the US is a good starting point to leverage in more developed nations.
Salary discussion is a bit limiting, better to just be rich enough. Have capital. If you must live off of what you earn you just want to earn more from one area and spend less in another area, so the answer to that is “yes”.
Folks would totally salary arbitrage if it was easy, but there's a few hoops to jump through (payroll allowing it, mail forwarding, timezones with coworkers, new languages, new bureaucracies). Not to mention the caring for older family members usually moves up in priority as they age.
I think it is but the edge is slipping. If you're willing to do freelancing / consulting you can work your way up to US prices in Europe or with more effort in Asia.
I would be interested in hearing what place might eventually (or now) be the US but better.
The US I grew up in felt a little more naviely optimistic and ambitious which I would like to find more of.
Lately it seems like I mostly meet extremely capable people who have access to massive capital and they choose to live a quiet life and retire rather than build stuff. Which is fine...but not what I'm looking for.
India seems like a compelling possibility. Maybe Nigeria in a couple years?
It's worth pointing out too how much this depends on city too.
SF used to be the place that still had all that stuff but I've heard it's pretty tough to live there now.
I lived two years in the US as an exchange student, it was pretty fun and that’s what allowed me to learn English.
But I was not really impressed. Recently someone offered me a position in FAANG company, I refused despite the high salary.
In my humble opinion, your country is too diverse that it’s starting to hurt, you are being polarized over trivial stuff and social interactions are too shallow (I prefer opposite countries where it’s harder to engage with people but where discussions get a lot deeper)
Also the American dream is not really appealing to me, I have lived in 5 countries (for at least a year), the US is the one I enjoyed the least
"If you could take your salary and live in a different country..." Spain (?) perhaps, because Spanish culture may have a better work/life balance and coastal Spain is similar to coastal California climate-wise. I haven't been on a date in years and suspect many U.S. men in tech are in a similar situation. Also almost any conversation would be engaging/interesting/humbling because Spanish is not in my primary language and that provides an incentive to be more social.
I don’t think it ever was in general? I was offered a green card and a high value job in California. I decided to accept a job in Australia instead. That was the right choice for me. But YMMV of course. I think it depends on your personality, job situation etc. whether the US is the right choice for you or not.
What made you decide to go to Australia as opposed to California with green card prospects? From my limited view point, the opportunity you left on the table was massive.
I have lived and worked in the US and I realised that the Australian culture is a better fit for me. I probably would have made more money in the US but that is not #1 on my list of what is important. The amount of misery, stress, and anxiety I saw every day in the US was not something I agreed with. Coming from a well functioning European country, it was a shock to me to see people begging in the streets. Before living in the US I had never seen a beggar “live”. Only on TV. It was a massive culture shock for me. Australia is a perfect blend of Europe and the US. Best of both in my opinion.
Regardless of the salary, I have never seen a place as beautiful as the West Coast, specifically the cities of San Diego, LA and SF. It still gives me goosebumps and watering eyes today when I land there. It might be that I am conflating the opportunities that the area has given me with the actual beauty, but I don’t think so.
And I was born and raised in the beautiful Mediterranean coast in Europe.
I agree the US coast don't have much to write home about, however Montana, Colorado & rockies, Yellowstone, there's so much nation park lands and accompanying towns in the US that really do match up to AU and NZ.
It was maybe before the WWII, what are you looking at? Over-priced lousy food, living on a 1M+ cardboard box? The diversity is pretty is only skin deep, people living there are pretty much all the same, same hobbies, etc...
Depends on whether you are white or not. US is great for white people and for immigrants from certain countries. Probably suboptimal for others but in terms of economic opportunity, it's the best for everyone.
Cost of living has been increasing at rates that engineer compensation has not kept up with at all, especially in cities.
In many EU countries, you get 35 days of paid vacation mandated by law, along with 6 months to over a year of maternity and paternity leave. In the US, you get no such guarantee, and undercurrents of the Protestant work ethic are very well and alive in our culture. Sometimes new hires are expected to not take any paid vacations for the first first year of their employment. There's also a strain of private authoritarianism when it comes to employment in the US, by default, some employers treat their employees like property, and can seemingly dictate the terms of employees' off-time. Stemming from this are expectations of being on-call, but without the benefits of things like accruing overtime, being paid time and a half or with handsome bonuses that workers elsewhere tend to demand. All in all, workers' rights in the US are dismal compared to many first-world countries.
Truthfully, if I were younger and didn't have ties to the US, I would look into emigrating to the EU if they'd take me.