[esk]

You're right—employers are being lazy.

It's safe for people in HR to mindlessly prefer mediocre Candidate A with a degree over stellar Candidate B without one, so instead of actually examining the values the candidates can bring to the company, they take the easy, defensible path.

Part of the process of employers' recognizing that someone learning online can easily learn more than someone going to a university will be to empower HR departments to honestly examine candidates' value to the company rather than looking at increasingly irrelevant badges on their resume.

In short, employers lazily prefer people with degrees. People want employment. People seek degrees. Universities see tons of demand and little pressure to improve, so they don't. Most graduates skills are irrelevant for today's employers, so they don't get hired. Employers can break this cycle by empowering their HR departments.

[patio11]

I think you are thinking of a fairly different phenomenon than I am thinking of. Let's take two candidates, A and B. A has a degree in Anime as Literature (a degree which fairly few people have but which is available if you want it from at least one university, and which we'll stipulate has fairly little commercial relevance in the United States) from, without loss of generality, Washington University in St. Louis (my alma mater). B has equivalent knowledge regarding postmodern interpretations of Evangelion but gained it all through self-study.

You are describing that companies discriminate against B in favor of A because their hiring processes are broken and doing so is organizationally safe. I agree that in many cases their hiring processes are broken, but think that it doesn't matter because companies do not care about anime. It is utterly irrelevant to them. Knowledge of anime does not make you more efficient at filling out TPS reports. However, the degree from WashU brackets you as Top X% of Valued Quality Y distribution, where Y might be "intelligence" or "ability to follow through on moderately complex tasks with long time horizons" or simply "success in a highly selective process" if you're feeling charitable or "social standing" if you're not. Prospective employers aren't allowed to effectively discriminate based on intelligence (no, really), so they can use possession of a degree as a proxy for it. By comparison, the actual contents of the education received post-matriculation are irrelevant, so the fact that Candidate B has objectively equivalent knowledge of anime is not meaningful to the prospective employer.

[m-photonic]

>Prospective employers aren't allowed to effectively discriminate based on intelligence (no, really), so they can use possession of a degree as a proxy for it.

Yep. Amy Wax has an excellent take on it here:

"The combination of well-documented racial differences in cognitive ability and the consistent link between ability and job performance generates a pattern that experts term “the validity-diversity tradeoff”: job selection devices that best predict future job performance generate the smallest number of minority hires in a broad range of positions. Indeed, the evidence indicates that most valid screening devices will have a significant adverse impact on blacks and will also violate the 4/5 rule under the law of disparate impact.

Because legitimately meritocratic (that is, job-related) job selection practices will routinely trigger prima facie violations of the disparate impact rule, employers who adopt such practices run the risk of being required to justify them – a costly and difficult task that encourages undesirable, self-protective behaviors and may result in unwarranted liability."

Source: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1795443

[SandB0x]

> well-documented racial differences in cognitive ability

The what??

[mkr-hn]

Some people confuse poor social and economic mobility with inherent capacity.

[m-photonic]

Whether you think the racial IQ gap is genetic or socioeconomic in origin is neither here nor there. The fact is that it exists, while the four-fifths rule that has been with us since Griggs v. Duke depends on the assumption that it doesn't exist. This is quite simply a falsehood. What's more, its falsity is completely uncontroversial, which makes it somewhat astounding that disparate impact doctrine has lasted for so long without being seriously challenged.

Because it demands that lower-IQ minorities be hired at the same level as higher-IQ whites, disparate impact doctrine should not be thought of as simple anti-discrimination law, but as affirmative action under another name. Now, there are points to be made for or against affirmative action, but it shouldn't be sold to the public as something else. And particularly not in such a way as to lead to so many negative side effects on the rest of society, in the form of restricting employers to less effective hiring practices. A system where employers could freely make use of g-loaded qualification processes without the threat of litigation, provided that they spotted blacks an extra SD's worth of points so as to avoid breaking the four-fifths rule, would be quite simply BETTER than what we have today, while keeping the AA-like effects. Of course, if anyone tried that at present time they'd probably end up getting sued by whites. It would make more sense to follow Ms. Wax's suggestion of switching to a sliding scale or throwing out disparate impact altogether.

I believe that disparate impact doctrine is a reason why we have the higher education bubble that we have today. It's maybe not the biggest reason, but it's probably in the top 3. There comes a point where you have to wonder if this sort of thing is really worth keeping around in the name of racial idealism.

[mkr-hn]

It's only controversial because actual racists--people with negative views toward certain races--use the same research and arguments. And it's completely unnecessary. You can say "socially immobile" or something like it. That avoids wrecking the discussion with things you know will cause problems.

I'm not even talking about the case or the impact on hiring. I'm talking about how dragging race in without cause cuts any real discussion of the situation off.

[nazgulnarsil]

give researchers a little more credit. they aren't pants on head retarded enough to ignore the most obvious of all confounding variables.

[mkr-hn]

There's no reason to consider race unless you're talking about removing barriers for one or another. The differences aren't racial. They're socioeconomic.

[nazgulnarsil]

before you start getting downvoted I'd like to ask that people who object to this at least take a moment to consider the difference between positive and normative statements before you respond.

[antoncohen]

> I agree that in many cases their hiring processes are broken, but think that it doesn't matter because companies do not care about anime. It is utterly irrelevant to them. Knowledge of anime does not make you more efficient at filling out TPS reports.

I think it is both. The education system is broken, and has been for a long time. Degrees in Sociology and Communications have always been useless knowledge. The economic downturn has only brought that fact to the attention of people. At the same time employers are requiring job applicants have college degrees--any degree--for jobs that absolutely do not require degrees. I feel sorry for the people who got Business degrees, it was probably a wise choice when they started college, but by they time they graduated no one wanted to hire people with Business degrees.

I know one YC startup that requires the receptionists to have a college degrees, and they only pay them $12/hour in San Francisco, which frankly is not a living wage in SF. The letter "Serving people drinks was more rewarding" sounds a lot like the non-techie people I know. Get a Masters in Business Administration, think you did everything right with your 4.0 GPA. Then you graduate and can't find work. Maybe take a job in retail. After job hunting for a year you take that receptionist position, because hey, there's growth opportunity, which is better than retail. But it turns out there is no opportunity, the predatory management won't give raises because in this economy they can just fire you and hire another college grad at $12/hour.

Education has failed because they don't teach useful skills, yet they tell students that they are useful throughout their education. HR has failed because they haven't figured out how to find that diamond in the rough without putting up arbitrary requirements.