[hfourm]

Good stuff. I have lived with ADHD as long as I remember. Going on and off prescriptions.

Adult ADHD has mostly revolved around depression/mood swing cycles of hyper focus and motivation (new interesting project/work, new job) and procrastination, lack of focus, and depression caused by that feeling of know I should be doing X but not being able to bring myself to.

I have some coping techniques and it isn't something I think about all the time. The worst thing about it is that while prescriptions are effective, they are not pleasant and the tolerance you build to them is even worse. I try to balance them (threshold dosages, only using when I really need it) with other techniques.

[cik2e]

There are supplements that eliminate almost all of the negative side-effects of stims.

- L-Tyrosine to keep your dopamine levels up.

- ALCAR + ALA to reduce neurotoxicity and tolerance formation

- Magnesium and Zinc for muscle tension, including jaw clenching if you're prone to that.

And for Aderall, you can take Vitamin C at any point to rapidly flush it out of your system.

These things are a game-changer for quality of life and sustainability of stimulant medication. For example, with the ALA+ALCAR stack, I don't get any withdrawals when I take breaks. No fatigue, malaise, nothing. I would have given up on adderall a long time ago without these things.

[omginternets]

> And for Aderall, you can take Vitamin C at any point to rapidly flush it out of your system.

Is this legit? If so, that’s incredibly useful information! What’s the mechanism?

Re neurotoxicity, I believe you are mistaken that amphetamine salts are toxic. I believe this is the case with meth, but not pharmaceutical stims.

[fire]

Do you have any recs for where to buy ALA and ALCAR from? Reddit seems to recommend nootropicsdepot which I've honestly never heard of before today.

[pbrb]

Exactly the same for me. I'm currently in the "I know I should be doing X but not being able to bring myself to" cycle on a piece of a major project. It's not hard work, I know how to do it, but I just cannot do it.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, and have avoided the medication my whole life. Recently, I decided to try Adderall. It's like magic to be honest, and has helped tremendously in multiple ways. I can focus on a single task, less pain in getting started on tasks, can actually stay focused, can listen without the draining mental effort to force myself to, and am less forgetful.

But for some reason, this one project has put me right back in the same old 'cannot do this' state even with the Adderall.

[randallsquared]

> It's like magic to be honest

For nearly everyone, if I understand correctly, ADHD or no.

[romwell]

You understand incorrectly, and you are propagating a harmful stereotype (which makes medication harder to obtain for people who need it).

Aderall has vastly different effects on people with ADHD vs. the rest.

The best I can say is the Adderall makes us feel the way you feel normally. To us, it feels like magic. The ability to switch from a task you're engaged in? The ability to do something that you need to do and want to do - and even enjoy - when you want to do it? Magic.

Enjoy the superpowers you never knew you had.

[hirvi74]

Any sources for your claims, I've read the opposite?

> Many double blind studies over the past 40 years have uniformly agreed that stimulants such as methylphenidate, dextro-amphetamine, as well as other substances, are very effective in the treatment of 70%–80% of children and adults with ADHD. One of the myths of ADHD is that ADHD children show a paradoxical effect of being calmed by stimulants, while “normal” individuals are stimulated by them. However, studies have shown that the activity levels are decreased and attention levels are increased by stimulants in individuals with and without ADHD. The difference is that since the levels of hyperactivity and inattention are much higher in ADHD subjects, the improvement is relatively much greater, giving the impression that they respond, while non-ADHD subjects do not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2626918/

I also have ADHD, and I feel like the medication benefits are vastly overstated. To use an analogy, I was lead to believe that the medication is as effective as opioids for severe pain, but my experiences have been about as effective as Ibuprofen for severe pain. I've tried many different formulations, brands, drug classes -- many of which multiple times at multiple dosages, and I don't feel "magical" yet.

I still take some meds because they're better than nothing, but I am starting to wonder if people are just being overly hyperbolic, and I had too great of expectations.

[romwell]

Medication doesn't have the same effect for everyone. I was lucky in the way it worked for me, perhaps.

The point is, just experiencing this month of calm and ability to do things helped me overcome a lifetime of learned helplessness.

I am more effective now without Adderall than I was before I've had it, simply because I can catch myself getting into the brain fog and using e.g. the help of my partner to break out of it.

Speaking of Ibuprofen, it feels like magic to me too. I've had 100+ degree fever from COVID booster, my whole body was aching, I felt cold, but putting my socks on (which I had in my hands felt like an immense chore). Ibuprofen cleared that within an hour.

Was it "severe" pain? Let's say, I've had worse. But Ibuprofen took me from 100% non-functioning to mostly-functioning. Magic.

In any case, I feel like what you wrote does not contradict what I said.

Let's use glasses as an analogy. Arguably, prescription glasses can be used by people with good vision either to resolve finer print, or to resolve text much further away. The laws of optics work the same for them.

However, we would say that the effect of wearing glasses is drastically different for people who need a strong prescription vs. people who do not.

As they say, size (of the effect) matters.

>The difference is that since the levels of hyperactivity and inattention are much higher in ADHD subjects, the improvement is relatively much greater, giving the impression that they respond, while non-ADHD subjects do not.

It's like saying that giving food to someone who's starving is the same as to someone who's eating well. The effect is the same, the response is different.

Those who don't live in constant brain fog don't really get to feel how Adderall helps with that.

Anyway, my personal experience with Adderall is written up here:

https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication

I'll be glad to look to sources to back up my claims (or stand corrected and learn); but can you help me out and say what it is that you want references for? I struggled to understand where we're disagreeing, though we'd perhaps use different words to talk about the same thing.

[hirvi74]

> Speaking of Ibuprofen, it feels like magic to me too. I've had 100+ degree fever from COVID booster, my whole body was aching, I felt cold, but putting my socks on (which I had in my hands felt like an immense chore). Ibuprofen cleared that within an hour.

Damn, I should have tried that. I got laid out after shot #2 and #3. I just ended suffering through it for about 24 hours both days after.

I like your analogy and it does convey a good point.

Perhaps, I can word it my initial point like this. It's suspected (or perhaps merely just a product of combined statistics) that 10% to 20% of people who suffer from ADHD do not benefit from any of the mediation types - MPH, AMP, M. AMP, or the various non-stimulant formulations. So, what then? Do they not have ADHD then? What analogy would you use for them? What advice would have for them?

As ADHD as I am, I am not sure living 2/3 of my life (so far) untreated could accurately be described as "brain-fog." I have had brain-fog before from various other things, and I wouldn't use it to describe my symptoms, at least not on a daily basis. On days I go med-free, then sure, but I attribute that to the sudden withdraw and rebound-effects.

I think a huge problem for me was not the 'spacey' feelings or lack of attention, but that my attention was too good. My mind is like a Ferrari with no steering wheel. It can go fast, but there is no controlling it.

If something really attracts my attention, I can laser in on it to the point I cannot pull myself away be it video games, a topic I enjoy, etc.. (Hyperfocus, yes I know)

This a symptom medication does not improve, but actually makes worse. I guess I have to take the good with the bad. A doctor told me, "if you can find me 'the perfect' (no negatives) pill, then found a pill that doesn't do anything at all."

However, hyperfocus is my Icurus Complex. I basically cannot do any meaningful work it out, but alas it flies me too close to the sun where I can barely doing any meaningful work because of it.

Perhaps I had too high of expectations for medication. Maybe deep down I wanted something that made life easier, and not something that made life better.

[tgaj]

To be honest he is somehow right. It's magic for everyone but for people with ADHD (like me or you) it gets us to the level of normal people. For normal people is giving them nearly superhuman focus. I don't think the theory that stimulants are working somehow very different for us than for normal people is valid. But that of course is my opinion.

[HighlandSpring]

> Enjoy the superpowers you never knew you had.

This so much. I rarely attempt to communicate the experience of ADHD because it's rarely worth the effort but one of the times that I did to a good friend I was met with an affectionate "so you're a bit of a retard" and it's hard to argue otherwise.

[romwell]

The best I can come up with in terms of analogy is manual focus (like on old-school camera lens) vs. autofocus

* Manual focus may not be very sharp, but you can change it instantly, and get within the ballpark every time.

* Autofocus is very sharp... but not necessarily on what you want to capture. If it's not shiny enough, autofocus never locks in on that subject. If a bird flies past the window while you snap a photo of the blackboard, it will focus on the bird, and the blackboard comes out blurry. Since it's automatic, you can't just focus where you want to; you need to trick the circuit to work properly.

[randallsquared]

While I have never taken that specific stimulant, nor been diagnosed with ADHD, my partner is diagnosed, and I'm... somewhat familiar with the topic, let's say (though she's prescribed something other than Adderall). You may have read SSC[0][1] on the topic, but I'll leave it here in case you haven't, or for others.

[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...

[1] SSC (now switched to astralcodexten.substack.com) is a psychiatrist who has some expertise in the area.

[romwell]

>While I have never taken that specific stimulant, nor been diagnosed with ADHD

...you are not qualified to make statements of the sort, and I urge you to listen to people who have been diagnosed with ADHD and do take Adderall.

Another, fascinating thing to consider is that you may have ADHD. I was one of those people who said things similar to what you just did, because I had no idea that everyone, in fact, did not have the same struggles. How many of the posts in [2] do you find yourself relating to? If it's more then a dozen, consider getting an assessment (and reading up).

>You may have read SSC...

No, I have not. Thank you for linking it. If you read it, again, you will see that he reaffirms my point: that there are serious risks associated with Adderall taken by people who don't have ADHD, while it is an effective tool for people with ADHD (though, like every medication, it does not work for some, and can have side effects).

Please read what I have to say about ADHD medication, Adderall specifically, here: [1], and compare and contrast with SSC's "Summary" section.

Additionally, I should add that the introduction part of that article sounds like a failed attempt to describe a complex disorder to laymen. Part of it are not correct.

Psychiatrists are not infallible. I can go at length addressing which parts you shouldn't take, but let's say, the take-away from that article is in the summary, and please read what I have to say about it, and see how it compares with your experience of stimulants being taken by non-afflicted people.

[1] On Adderall: https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication

[2] All posts: https://romankogan.net/adhd/

----

TL;DR: Adderall helps me calm down, helps me switch between tasks (i.e. break focus), and helps me fall asleep when I go to bed.

This is not how it works for neurotypical people. If this is how it works for you, perhaps get yourself assessed for ADHD.

[hirvi74]

What are your credentials? Why should we trust your blog post over some random post on Facebook or Reddit?

I am not trying to be rude or anything. I am just more likely to believe a medical professional's opinions on medical topics than a non-medical professional.

With that being said, that doesn't mean you cannot still be right. I'm just curious for my own personal reasons.

[omginternets]

It’ll definitely stimulate everyone, adhd or no, but most people don’t have a brain fog that will be lifted by the meds. Nor do they have a plethora of other symptoms that amphetamine salts alleviate.