[YZF]

I agree with the parent but I disagree with you.

I am a manager in a large tech company and we care about our employees. We will not fire/lay them off/relieve them of their duty for any reason or not reason. We treat them as we expect to be treated. We will support them if they have some unusual circumstances. We do this because it is the right thing to do, and because it makes business sense. These are not mutually exclusive.

Is that the same as saying there's no situation where people will be laid off or let go? No. But it would happen for a good reason.

In a previous large company a decision was made collectively to take a wage cut and not lay people off. Employees got stock options to make up for the cut. In the end that all worked out.

Being ruthless to your employees doesn't make business sense. Who wants to work at a place like that? Does everyone do that? Absolutely not.

It's true a company isn't a person, but a company is made of people, and decisions are made by people, and you want to work somewhere that has good people that give a damn. At least I do.

All that said ;) if you are leaving, I agree there's no reason to stretch it out. That doesn't help anyone. In any properly managed project any employee leaving isn't the end of the world. There should always be more than one person that know what's going on. Having someone sit around, like a Schrodinger's Cat, that is both there and not there, doesn't really help anyone. It just feels weird. The rules of the game are set (in your contract), you need to give a notice, you give this notice, you're done. We'll take you out for lunch. No hard feelings. People move on for all sorts of reasons.

[delgaudm]

I hear you, and what I wrote was cynical, because it's safer that way. I totally respect that you treat people like they want to be treated, and that you want to treat people with dignity. That's what we all hope for. You sound like a good boss. That's fantastic.

But, as a small counterpoint, you say: >Is that the same as saying there's no situation where people will be laid off or let go? No. But it would happen for a good reason.

This is what I mean. The company has to do what is right for the company. And ultimately, it's employee be damned no matter how good, or loved or respected they are. You'll still be let go, and your life may go into disarray as a result. THe manager may lose sleep, but that won't stop it from happening. It also doesn't mean the company will hire you back, support you, or even give you a package on the way out other than a box to hold your personal belongings. It's gotta be that way.

All I'm saying, is that the employee has to know this, get it, and be willing to play the same game by the same rules. We're often taught to think that we owe the company or our former coworkers something, when we don't. If that means being less than truthful in an exit interview for example, or not sharing info with my manager so that I can make a move, then so be it. Employees have to do what's in their own best interest first.

I think many workers don't think this way and stay in dead-end, abusive, no-win situations out of a sense of loyalty that ultimately, won't and cannot be returned.

People two levels above me never asked my permission to lay me off. That's for sure.

[meetingthrower]

I hear you, but I have been a consultant for very large companies (even mutual insurance cos, with basically zero profit motive), and at the end of they day they will make decisions for the company and not for the person. As in, we got the CEO to fire some of his direct reports that had been working at the company 20+ years. And then it rolled downhill. Don't get romantic with your employer unless you own the company (or at least 51% of the voting shares.)

[refurb]

Precisely. I have no doubt that there are company that have management that genuinely care.

But they are part of a bigger organization and when it comes time to firing/laying off employees, it’s just impossible not to screw employees over (or at least have them feel like they were screwed over).

You know lay offs are a couple months off but it’s hush hush. Employees will find out in a couple weeks. Your direct report John tells you how excited he is to finally find the right house and he’s about to release the last contingency and can’t back out after. What do you say? What can you say? And even if you could say “id wait another week” John probably doesn’t think he’ll be laid off.

Firing people always makes them feel screwed over. Personal situations can rarely be accommodated with big reorgs. It’s smarter to protect yourself.

[YZF]

What's the benefit to the company of not letting people know in advance if they know? What you are describing sound like a badly run company.

My company has not laid off a single person in two decades AFAIK. (not to say we won't fire a person if that's just not working out, but broad layoffs). two decades is more than some people stay married ;). so it's definitely a relationship. Could it happen? who knows. Sometimes the business doesn't work out.

Next time you interview somewhere ask them when is the last time they laid off a significant number of people... (or just Google it, it typically makes the news).

[throway453sde]

> I am a manager in a large tech company and we care about our employees.

This is the problem with management roles. Managers opportunity to find new job is so low they are forced to think they are part of the company. The company does not think the same. The same is not true for IC devs, this may not be for long, but currently this the case. I hope people be honest at least over internet.

[YZF]

There's plenty of demand for managers and I can still do "real" ;) work as well.

When I say we I don't just mean "me". I mean all levels up to the CEO. And we demonstrate that all the time, it's not just something we say.

Again, this is still a business, it's not a non-profit, but there is alignment between treating people well and having a good business and finding more great people. Randomly firing people or abusing people, is just stupid. Please don't work at places that do that, not only because you'll get fired, but because that business is hurting its long term success.

[rambambram]

> Being ruthless to your employees doesn't make business sense.

Until it does.

[YZF]

Not really. It's a market. This is true if employees don't care. But if you avoid these places like the plague then it won't make business sense. Unless you're ok with never getting anyone to work for you.

Now if the company's business is failing it obviously can't keep holding on to its employees. Again there is a market question here. Just don't go work for a company that goes through cycles of bad business, layoffs, maybe it's ok, bad business, layoffs.

So it's really up to you if you want to play that game.

The company I work for, throughout its existence, has never been able to hire as many people as it wants to. Its business is doing great. It has had amazing growth with more growth in front of it. It's maybe not as glamorous as some.

I am sure there are plenty of places where there is a good business and you will be treated well. Let's not make it the norm to not treat us well, it's up to all of us. If none of us give this any consideration, ofcourse the market will evolve to fit what we do (I'm sure there'll still be people/companies that do the right thing anyways, but less).