[HWR_14]

> Taxes are robbery.

I'm fine with you not paying taxes, as long as you leave my country and renounce your citizenship. After that, make whatever you want on a boat in the ocean or in Somalia. But no one who thinks taxes are theft ever does that, because they want all the benefits of society my taxes pay for.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

Why renounce citizenship? I have several citizenships, and only US asks for my money while I reside elsewhere and don't consume any of its "services".

[HWR_14]

You consume the services of a country regardless of where you reside when you are a citizen, even if you don't consume much. But, yeah, Trump really fucked dual US citizens on that one (before 2017 you "had to pay US taxes" but you deducted the taxes of whatever country you were living in, which given the US's lower tax rate meant it was meaningless.)

I'm fine with you having to renounce your citizenship if your point is "taxes are theft" and you want to avoid them. If you wanna go your own way, fine. But then go your own way.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

All wrong. 1) I don't consume any "services". 2) Sure you can deduct your home country taxes, what are you talking about.

[germandiago]

I am not asking to be provided services I do not pay for.

I am not claiming I should have roads and health care and all and that taxes are theft at the same time. I am saying that taxes are theft on the basis that noone asked me what to pay or not.

The proof that things are terribly managed, at least in my country (Spain), is that we have a 120% GDP debt.

We are making new-born be born with a debt. Is that the right thing to do? For me that is immoral, unless you are that kind of person that thinks that we do a default and done, which would mean you are not a person that has a word to be believed. So what are the alternatives?

[HWR_14]

If you, or the newborn, leave Spain and renounce your citizenship they're not going to assign you a percentage of the national debt. Feel free to move to Somalia and pay no taxes and not be responsible for the national debt.

[germandiago]

You can go to Somalia, it is not the place I want to be in but you seem to be obsessed about Somalia.

I will give you some clues: Taiwan, Singapore, Cyprus (Greek part, of course), Estonia, Georgia, South Korea, Switzerland: and probably also many of the places you call a tax haven.

You can go to Somalia if you feel like.

[HWR_14]

I don't care where you go. But here's a hint, your list has income tax rates of 40%, 22%, 35%, 20%, 45% and (depends on the canon and city) 30% (in Geneva) respectively. That's plus any property, sales, VAT etc. taxes. I say go to Somalia because it's the only country that, AFAIK, has anything close to 0% taxation.

[germandiago]

Since you are talking about highest rate in Spain you have 54% Personal income + 21% VAT + anything you inherit or donate taxed + IBI (if you own a house). and do not get me started on business, or freelancing. Because they smash you badly.

In Spain if you earn 60,000 euros, which is not so much, in my area they tax you 47% from your salary + what your employer already paid to the social security. At the same rime they are raising the retirement age and do all kind of sh*t bc we have a Poncy system for retirement. Of course, politicians get max retirement after 8 years (for normal people it is 30 I recall). Some of them, like ex-presidents, have an income for the rest of their lives.

But hey, the money is to build roads and pay retirements and health care. Please someone explain to me this is not theft because I really do not get it.

The difference with a country like Singapore, with all its bad things (I lived there before, among other places) is that the level of corruption is lower, the taxing lower and the budget is managed seriously. Here... this is not even funny.

[HWR_14]

Why are you still in Spain then? You can move to Cyprus tomorrow, legally. Then you'll pay 20% less on your tax bill.

[germandiago]

what makes you think I should be expelled from the place I live just because I think making people be born in debt is bad? I am a second-class person in my own natural place?

[germandiago]

That is what I am in the process of doing.

[vimax]

You seem to be saying that anything short of living your philosophical ideals is hypocrisy.

There are a lot of government policies I think should be criminal, but nobody suggests that my only options are accept the policy or completely denounce society.

I think that the large telecoms are built on theft from society and that copyright laws are too extensive. Should I leave society to go live on Sealand?

[vasco]

That's not the point, you're arguing some parts of the implicit contract package deal you get given when you are born are not perfect. They are arguing that they should be able to sign such an agreement and that it shouldn't be implicit when you're born so that you could renounce this contract - which only works for hermits or self entitled people that came into some money and haven't had the inclination to read how a society functions.

[HWR_14]

You're pretty unfair with your criticism. I wasn't claiming you must reject all of society if you disagree with any aspect. My point was that you can avoid taxes - they happen to be 100% optional. And yet no person who claims taxes are theft is willing to do so.

To use an analogy, you're saying "look, not every restaurant serves your favorite food, why do you call people hypocrites who go out to eat at those places" and I'm saying "the people I call hypocrites are the ones who claim it's a moral imperative to refuse to tip or even pay the check who insist on going out to eat"

[vimax]

In what way are taxes 100% optional? In the sense that using AT&T is optional because I can move of I don't like it?

I don't follow your restaurant analogy. Someone can recognize that tipping is harmful to the wait staff, but continue to tip knowing that to do otherwise would only hurt the wait staff and not the restaurant.

[germandiago]

With a private service you always have alternatives.

With a government imposition you must pay, noone asks you, and, on top of that, you do not use those services most of the time. But if you use them, why they do not ask you if you want? That is exactly how real life works... except for government impositions.

[HWR_14]

You can leave the country and renounce your citizenship. Boom, taxes avoided. Otherwise, you're continuing to benefit from the government so you pay taxes. It's a voluntary arrangement to be a citizen of free societies.

[nopzor]

so the usa isn’t a free society?

[HWR_14]

You can renounce your US citizenship

[germandiago]

I would pay for my services, happily. Give me alternatives and tell me prices. And let me choose what I use. Do not tax me on the basis of "take this pack I chose" and I set the price and you must pay.

[HWR_14]

You have tons of alternatives. You can take the "Canadian citizenship" plan (subject to approval), you can take the "US citizenship" plan (subject to approval). If you're in the EU, you can actively swap what country you reside in with it's own bundles. Heck, within most countries you can change states/territories, counties and cities to get subplans.

Or do you think you personally should be given a line-item veto to a $5 trillion federal budget? Cause that's unworkable both practically and morally.

[germandiago]

Why they manage so much budget from taxes in the first place is the real question. At least for me.

Morally the right thing to do is to ask EACH person what budget they want to spend on what and have a BINDING contract on that.

When you buya house or sign a contract witha telco company you pay for what you were offered and you can claim any deviation for that. I do not accept it has to be different with a government.

Of course, I would not ask for using a road or health care. I buy an insurance, pay a toll for roads or whatever. And we would save money, at least in Spain, where taxes are abusive by all measures.