[mbrodersen]

So what about public roads, the police, the military, and the system of laws? You grew up taking advantage of those without having paid for them. So following your logic you should not have been allowed to use a public road or go to a public park without paying for it. And moving to another country, again following your logic, you have no right to walk on public roads you haven’t paid for, or take advantage of the military protection that the country provides. I hope you can see that following that way of thinking is very impractical? And according to your logic all of us are lazy freeloaders?

[m4nu3l]

Except for public roads I believe those are functions that can only be carried out by the government and are exactly what and only what the government should do. As I said, for reasons I didn't mention, I only believe in negative rights, and those rights should only be violated if it necessary to protect someone's else negative rights. Because we need the police, the military and a law system to protect those rights I'm OK with having those things socialized.

[mbrodersen]

> those are functions that can only be carried out by the government

I don’t think there is anything that only the government can provide. Look at countries around the world and there are examples where governments doesn’t provide public roads, police, laws, health care etc. so people hire their own security, pay for their own education/health etc. Bribe judges to get the ruling they want etc. Even the military used to be private in Europe. With governments hiring private armies to commit war. I personally would not want to live in those countries (they are often called “failed states” for a reason) but they do exist.

So I think the argument that there are things only governments can provide is incorrect. There might be things you happen to want the government to pay for but there doesn’t seem to be an underlying logical argument for why you choose those and not others?

[m4nu3l]

I meant that they can only be provided by the state in an effective way to protect the negative rights. That is what you need precisely to avoid becoming a failed state, where negative rights are not protected.

[mbrodersen]

So it seems to me that you only want the government to protect people against harm from other people. You don’t want the government to protect people against harm from non-people. If that is correct then you don’t want the government to provide sea rescue services, weather reports, rules for wearing seat belts, weather emergency services, scientific research etc?

[m4nu3l]

> So it seems to me that you only want the government to protect people against harm from other people.

Mostly, with some exceptions. If there is a market failure or natural catastrophe that is going to kill us all and only the government can fix it then I'm OK with that. So, if only the government can prevent a disease to spread or fix pollution, or redirect asteroids, I'm fine with that. But the bar is very high.

> If that is correct then you don’t want the government to provide sea rescue services, weather reports, rules for wearing seat belts, weather emergency services, scientific research

I think some of these can be provided at least to great level by insurance companies but I'm not convinced they can entirely be provided on voluntary basis, so I don't know. But other are clearly of of the scope of my ideal government like rules to wear a seat belt or not.

> scientific research

This is an interesting one. I see lots of people saying that only the government can do valuable research because a lot of recent inventions were initially funded or subsidized by the government - like the internet. I think that private research could work as good if not better. I also think though, why would a private company invest in research if the government is going to tax them and do that research regardless? I think it is an overcrowding issue. Also a lot of technologies that started in government labs are almost unrecognizable after all the private research and development that went into them after.

I'm not saying that negative rights can be achieved perfectly. But positive rights are too problematic IMO, and the further we can shy away from them the better.

[mbrodersen]

If there was a market for basic research then thousands of companies would be doing it. But pretty much all private basic research companies (including universities) are today funded by governments. And if you look at the history of any advanced nation, the governments created most of the markets that private companies could then take advantage of. Even the technology of the most basic private companies (pesticides etc. for farming) was researched and paid for by governments. Until it was mature enough for private companies to take over and run with. Most people recognise that it is a good thing for governments to create markets via research because it benefits everybody. New markets are created which means jobs and benefits/products. What is puzzling to me is that the same people who think it is OK for private companies to take advantage of research funded by tax money for feee is not OK with tax paying people taking advantage of the same research by getting a University education in return that they have already paid for or will pay for in the future via taxes.

[mbrodersen]

Almost all basic research is funded by governments. Even private universities in the US get almost all of their research paid for by the government via grants. And the private universities then turn around and use their research expertise, funded by the government, to attract paying students. So they are private organisations, heavily funded by the government, not benefitting the public by providing a University education for free. The European approach is more honest. People pay taxes, the taxes fund Universities, and the Universities do research and education that benefits the tax paying people. That seems to be a less harm approach compared with the US model of private universities. Agree?