[m4nu3l]

> So it seems to me that you only want the government to protect people against harm from other people.

Mostly, with some exceptions. If there is a market failure or natural catastrophe that is going to kill us all and only the government can fix it then I'm OK with that. So, if only the government can prevent a disease to spread or fix pollution, or redirect asteroids, I'm fine with that. But the bar is very high.

> If that is correct then you don’t want the government to provide sea rescue services, weather reports, rules for wearing seat belts, weather emergency services, scientific research

I think some of these can be provided at least to great level by insurance companies but I'm not convinced they can entirely be provided on voluntary basis, so I don't know. But other are clearly of of the scope of my ideal government like rules to wear a seat belt or not.

> scientific research

This is an interesting one. I see lots of people saying that only the government can do valuable research because a lot of recent inventions were initially funded or subsidized by the government - like the internet. I think that private research could work as good if not better. I also think though, why would a private company invest in research if the government is going to tax them and do that research regardless? I think it is an overcrowding issue. Also a lot of technologies that started in government labs are almost unrecognizable after all the private research and development that went into them after.

I'm not saying that negative rights can be achieved perfectly. But positive rights are too problematic IMO, and the further we can shy away from them the better.

[mbrodersen]

If there was a market for basic research then thousands of companies would be doing it. But pretty much all private basic research companies (including universities) are today funded by governments. And if you look at the history of any advanced nation, the governments created most of the markets that private companies could then take advantage of. Even the technology of the most basic private companies (pesticides etc. for farming) was researched and paid for by governments. Until it was mature enough for private companies to take over and run with. Most people recognise that it is a good thing for governments to create markets via research because it benefits everybody. New markets are created which means jobs and benefits/products. What is puzzling to me is that the same people who think it is OK for private companies to take advantage of research funded by tax money for feee is not OK with tax paying people taking advantage of the same research by getting a University education in return that they have already paid for or will pay for in the future via taxes.

[mbrodersen]

Almost all basic research is funded by governments. Even private universities in the US get almost all of their research paid for by the government via grants. And the private universities then turn around and use their research expertise, funded by the government, to attract paying students. So they are private organisations, heavily funded by the government, not benefitting the public by providing a University education for free. The European approach is more honest. People pay taxes, the taxes fund Universities, and the Universities do research and education that benefits the tax paying people. That seems to be a less harm approach compared with the US model of private universities. Agree?

[m4nu3l]

I agree that that's how things are. The fact that they are like this doesn't mean they must be. I believe there is a huge market for private research. Imagine the company getting to nuclear fusion first. They will be extremely profitable, and investor don't even have to pick a company. They can diversify. So I disagree with the conclusion. I believe this is a big case of Crowding-out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowding_out_(economics).

[mbrodersen]

If there was a huge market for basic research then private companies would be all over it. The reason why there isn’t, and never will be, is because investors would rather invest in companies with a clear ROI than in no goal blue sky research. Kinda obvious when you think about it. Investors want to maximise their chance to make money. So they invest accordingly.

[m4nu3l]

I think we can agree to disagree on many things. But I want to tell you something before I move on. I come from a country where positive rights are hinted in the constitution and applied in practice. The constitution states that "the government has to remove economic and societal obstacles preventing equality among citizens".

My country of origin has subsidized higher education, high redistribution, minimum guaranteed income, a public health system, strong union rights, minimum wage and many regulations of what you can on cannot do with your property.

I left that country, maybe forever. And many many others that got higher education (either in the country or abroad) left and are never going to come back.

The net wage differential of highly skilled jobs with respect to the average income is not enough to justify the long studies if you are going to stay. They even had to create a law that allows people that come back to pay much less taxes if they stay for a given amount of years to try lure some highly skilled people back to the country.

I believe it's because of all these government policies that the economy grows very little in that country. As a result everyone in that country is poorer that other more "negative rights" based countries.

My subjective experience is also that people feel much more entitled in that country and are less able to take personal responsibility. Everything is blamed on the Government (more than in the country I live in now).

I think my country or origin as a social democracy although it's never mentioned because people only talks about the "successful" ones.

I fear that all countries could become like that.

[m4nu3l]

No, you missed the point about Crowding-out. The phenomena is exactly this, there is a market but because the Government does it, it crowds out investments.