[m4nu3l]

I can believe it to be true but so far no evidence has convinced me of that.

> However it is also true that some people will never accept it as being true.

I suspect it is because of the philosophical point I made, but maybe some people are not able to articulate it? E.g. I could accept my practical point to be invalid but that would not invalidate the second point - I just give freedom of choice value in itself. Hence I can tolerate costs that arise because of that.

[mbrodersen]

Freedom of choice is an interesting thing to think about. Most people will agree that freedom of choice is a good thing. However the devil is in the details. How about giving people the freedom of choice to own nuclear weapons? Most people would probably disagree with that one. How about having the freedom to own slaves? Again people would probably disagree. But why? Isn’t freedom of choice always good? How about free education and free healthcare? I personally think that it gives people more freedom to choose the kind of life they want. But I have heard “pro freedom” people argue against it because they think it will make people lazy. I myself received a MSc in Computer Science from a top university and it cost me nothing. It didn’t make me or anybody else I knew at University lazy. So I don’t think it is true. However some “pro freedom” people still want to take that freedom away from other people. And the same goes for minimum wage. I have lived in a number of countries with a high minimum wage. And the economies were strong and people worked hard. So a lot of the claims about minimum wage sounds false to me. So perhaps it all comes down to personal experience. If you have seen or been part of something that works well then you obviously know that it works well. And people who haven’t will disagree.

[m4nu3l]

I got my MSc in Computer Engineering in a country where university is highly subsidized, so it cost me very little. Now I live, work and pay taxes in another country. People that paid for my education are getting nothing in return.

About freedom of choice, for me the line is whenever your freedom directly impacts the freedom of someone else. You can't have slaves for this reason. But for the same reason you shouldn't have others pay for your education. Of course you have more choices if someone pays for your education. But that's not the point. Society has no say on what type of education you choose to have, so it should pay no cost. As I mention in another comment I only believe negative rights should be a thing - and I think I have strong reasons to believe this.

Nukes are only good for war, hence you probably shouldn't have them. On the other hand private companies or individuals with the right clearance should be able to own and manage nuclear power plants - as they do.

[mbrodersen]

So what about public roads, the police, the military, and the system of laws? You grew up taking advantage of those without having paid for them. So following your logic you should not have been allowed to use a public road or go to a public park without paying for it. And moving to another country, again following your logic, you have no right to walk on public roads you haven’t paid for, or take advantage of the military protection that the country provides. I hope you can see that following that way of thinking is very impractical? And according to your logic all of us are lazy freeloaders?

[m4nu3l]

Except for public roads I believe those are functions that can only be carried out by the government and are exactly what and only what the government should do. As I said, for reasons I didn't mention, I only believe in negative rights, and those rights should only be violated if it necessary to protect someone's else negative rights. Because we need the police, the military and a law system to protect those rights I'm OK with having those things socialized.

[mbrodersen]

> those are functions that can only be carried out by the government

I don’t think there is anything that only the government can provide. Look at countries around the world and there are examples where governments doesn’t provide public roads, police, laws, health care etc. so people hire their own security, pay for their own education/health etc. Bribe judges to get the ruling they want etc. Even the military used to be private in Europe. With governments hiring private armies to commit war. I personally would not want to live in those countries (they are often called “failed states” for a reason) but they do exist.

So I think the argument that there are things only governments can provide is incorrect. There might be things you happen to want the government to pay for but there doesn’t seem to be an underlying logical argument for why you choose those and not others?

[m4nu3l]

I meant that they can only be provided by the state in an effective way to protect the negative rights. That is what you need precisely to avoid becoming a failed state, where negative rights are not protected.

[mbrodersen]

> Nukes are only good for war, hence you probably shouldn't have them.

Hold on. I thought you said that freedom was the ability to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. Now you added rule #2: You only have the freedom pick from things somebody else (the government?) have decided that you can pick from. That sounds exactly like the system we have in most countries. So if the government decides to make education and health freely available then you should be happy with that right? It follows your rules perfectly.

[m4nu3l]

> So if the government decides to make education and health freely available then you should be happy with that right? It follows your rules perfectly

The government doesn't produce any of those. It has to take from someone else. You can't make any of those things free. You can only make them socialized.

> Nukes are only good for war, hence you probably shouldn't have them.

If they are planning to kill people then that are planning to violate negative rights of others. You lose your rights in that case.

[mbrodersen]

> You can't make any of those things free. You can only make them socialized.

If something is socialised then it is free to choose from. So it is free as in $ and free as in freedom.

> If they are planning to kill people then that are planning to violate negative rights of others. You lose your rights in that case.

Makes sense in principle but impossible to do in practical. Nobody has a mind reader. Nobody can accurately predict the future behaviour of other people. Do you agree that your thinking is impossible to actually implement?

[m4nu3l]

> If something is socialised then it is free to choose from. So it is free as in $ and free as in freedom.

Yes, and that's positive rights. As I said, I only believe in negative rights.

> Makes sense in principle but impossible to do in practical. Nobody has a mind reader. Nobody can accurately predict the future behaviour of other people. Do you agree that your thinking is impossible to actually implement?

Then we don't allow them. It's a price to pay in lost negative rights but only to protect other's negative rights.

[mbrodersen]

> People that paid for my education are getting nothing in return.

So are you happy with that or are you going to pay back the government for your education? If your answer is no would it be fair to say that you want others to not get anything for free but you are perfectly happy to get free things yourself?

[m4nu3l]

> it be fair to say that you want others to not get anything for free but you are perfectly happy to get free things yourself?

I'm happy if it's legal, even if I think it shouldn't be. As long as it's legal for everyone I'm not going to be the only person to pay.

[mbrodersen]

Yep I think it shows the limitations of evidence in complex subjects like Economics. If somebody doesn’t want something to be true, they will simply demand more evidence, claim that the evidence has flaws, claim that the researchers are not rigorous enough and/or somehow corrupt etc. The tobacco industry wrote the book on how to do that.