[adev_]

> Other than memory safety, simplicity, dependency management and build tooling, the .NET standard libraries, the open source library ecosystem

Not feeding the troll but outside memory safety, everything else you list exist in the C++ ecosystem with generally better alternative than in C#.

And as soon as you do touch mmap , unsafe area or native code in C# you loose memory safety too anyway.

[lmm]

> Not feeding the troll but outside memory safety, everything else you list exist in the C++ ecosystem with generally better alternative than in C#.

Oh? I don't think you can dispute that the C standard library is very limited and the state of dependency management / build tooling is very poor. And that actually limits the usability of the open source library ecosystem quite a lot; maybe there are more C++ libraries out there, but you can't just type what you want into the nuget search bar and get on with using it.

Simplicity is in the eye of the beholder, but the very weak semantics of C++ templates mean you can't reason compositionally about C++ code, whereas in C# it's relatively easy to have a codebase that you can reliably understand piecemeal.

> And as soon as you do touch mmap , unsafe area or native code in C# you loose memory safety too anyway.

In principle yes, but if you keep those points very rare then you can subject them to extra review etc. at a level that would be impractical with a C++ codebase (where even "a + b" is undefined behaviour in the general case). Memory safety vulnerabilities in real-world C# codebases are rare.

[tester34]

>simplicity

I didn't spent a lot of hours in C++ world, but it never felt simple

- N compilers, N package managers, N ways to do everything

[adev_]

> I didn't spent a lot of hours in C++ world, but it never felt simple

C++ is not simple.

But presenting C# (or Java) as "simple" is equally hypocritical. The JVM or the CLR and their associated frameworks are monster of complexity, engineering and legacy that require close to an entire lifetime to be mastered entirely.

C# (or Java) are "accessible", meaning a newbie devlopper can produce something halfway baked in these languages relatively quickly.

And this is something you can not say about C++.

But they are not in any way "simple".

[tester34]

I don't think you're talking about same thing

Just because JVM or CLR are complex, then it *doesn't* mean that writting good C# / Java requires you to be proficient at CLR/JVM lvl and because of that it is hard.

>meaning a newbie devlopper can produce something halfway baked in these languages relatively quickly.

Newbie developer can produce mediocre solutions in all of those - C#, Java, C++.

The difference is that in C#/Java world it may be slow and in C++/C world it may be exploitable (more likely) <snark>.

Anyway, in my world very often it's not about internals, but about modeling skills, about OOP, testability. Those are some of the ways of measuring how good the code is.

Good system modeling skills are way above technology

[kaba0]

How exactly are they not simple? Well, not C# because it has a problem with a bit of a feature creep similar to C++, but Java is a really tiny language compared to.. anything.

And you don’t have to be a master of the JVM because chances are you are not a gcc/clang maintainer and yet you can write performant-enough correct code.

[1ris]

N ways to do something, but in exchange you can get good solutions in C++. In the C# world you are locked to a medicore compiler, with a medicore package manager, a sub standard (and complicated!) build system and a unacceptable code formatter, for example.

[tester34]

>with a medicore package manager

What do you mean? since .NET Core it always worked flawlessly for me

>unacceptable code formatter

hmm? that's preference not an argument.

[1ris]

With package manager I mean nuget. The last time I used .net (one year ago) ".Net core" was a target platform and already renamed to ".Net".

No, that's not a preference. I'm not complaining about a lack of options, I really don't care how code looks, if it all looks the same. And it fails at that. It quite often simply takes the code as it is and indents it a little bit. Clang-format (and rustfmt and dart format and plenty of others) give you the nice, tidy and homogeneous code layout i expect from a auto formatter.

[tester34]

Yea, I meant Nuget

iirc there were some changes around .NET Framework -> .NET Core to how does it work (where packages are stored) and that's why I said that since .NET Core I didn't have problems with it

[spaetzleesser]

"everything else you list exist in the C++ ecosystem with generally better alternative than in C#."

That seems a little questionable. Maybe "sometimes better"?.