[nradov]

It's interesting that Japan has had far fewer cases than comparable countries. The difference can't be explained by infection control measures; there seems to be some other factor. So it's not clear how well data from Japan generalizes to the rest of the world.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/22/japan-covid-...

[astonex]

As far as I've read, they undertest a lot in Japan.

It also probably helps that like other asian countries they wear masks all the time, everywhere and without complaint.

Japan also currently doesn't let anyone in to the country.

[Barrin92]

Having spent time in several East-Asian countries how masks during a pandemic became some political hot topic in some places still confuses the hell out of me.

[colechristensen]

Japan is a very conformity based society which has plenty of its own problems, just not this one. Countries often have a broad common ethos which are quite variable around the world and each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Americans quite like splitting into factions, telling the other factions what the moral imperatives of the day are, and rebelling against what other factions tell them to do. It is a part of a somewhat broken sense of anti authoritarian bent which doesn’t recognize that authoritarian actions by your own group are equally problematic. Just a signal that once quite good ideology is degrading into something a bit strange, mostly just because of how information is distributed and education done.

[labster]

The problem in America is that the other side really doesn’t believe in American values, but instead wants to take away our constitutional freedoms. They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves. They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power, even when most people hate what they’re doing. Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. And their response to the coronavirus could not be more misguided or dangerous.

And almost all Americans agree with this, because I didn’t actually name a political party. If there’s one thing that brings Americans together, it’s knowing that the other half is pure evil.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values. American values are instead being interpreted in disagreeing ways, and are being applied to different circumstances. (For example, the sovereign citizen movement clearly at least attempts to take on aspects of the American constitution, and interprets them very differently to the court system.)

[fivea]

> I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values.

As an outsider, one of the US's core values is democracy and the democratic process.

Given the current push to undermine it, and the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot, and given the current level of support given to this dictatorial push, I have to say that from an outsider's perspective one side of America's political establishment clearly does not believe in American values.

[jollybean]

So which side are you talking about?

--- "Take away our constitutional freedoms."

Right now, who is ordering who to stay home, to not go to the gym, to church, to a restaurant, to a private gathering - by force of law - and even imposing curfews?

For context, these might be some of the most broad and assertive challenges ever made on constitutional freedoms.

--- "They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves."

There is one group of people in America who are killing themselves at 6x the rate of other Americans, and about 20x the rate of people of other countries.

They have hypocritically 'blamed' (at least in terms of populism) the issue on policing, which is very demonstrably not a direct cause, requiring police to pull back in many areas, and now we see the result, a 150% increase in violence among those same poor and vulnerable communities, that were already extremely violent. The major increase in lives lost is directly measurable in the thousands.

The #1 cause of death among this group, is violence from their own group.

Not 'some other group' assaulting them.

--- "They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power"

One group is trying to give voting rights to huge numbers of non-citizens at every level of government, because that group feels the new voters would vote for them, which is in terms of raw numbers, the most gigantic form of election gerrymandering ever conceived.

--- "Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. "

New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire etc. are some of the worst hit by COVID in terms of deaths per capita, as for 'laughing stock' the Governor went down on sexual assault allegations, and charges of misrepresenting COVID information. Despite the careless populist rhetoric of some political fools, frankly, there isn't much of a serious political pattern across the nation in terms of outcomes - there's a pretty big 'obesity' pattern, which correlates strongly with race, but it also points to an issue in America overall vis-a-vis the rest of the world (i.e. obesity). But that isn't really a politically 'sided' issue so much.

...

I think you really did make the OP's point by pointing out how 'each side likes to blame the other' - I couldn't even fathom who you were talking about for sure.

However much I personally might support mask, separation and other restrictions, it's pretty oddly lacking in self awareness to talk about the 'Authoritarianism Of The Other Side' when literally politicians are ordering the most assertive transgressions of basic rights in history however legitimized or not.

As for Omicron ... we really don't know yet. Maybe this is the last real lockdown wave before lethality, treatments and vaccines provide enough protection.

[fivea]

> For context, these might be some of the most broad and assertive challenges ever made on constitutional freedoms.

The US has organized, in recent history, concentration camps based on the premise that national security was at stake.

More recently, the US employed secret prisons to torture people who were deemed persons of interest, both foreign and US citizens.

I'd figure that requiring basic personal higiene and public health measures, such as wearing a mask in public places to avoid spreading a disease which is already killed well over 800k US citizens, shouldn't even register as a concern regarding "constitutional freedoms". Yet, why is this only a concern, and the "most broad and assertive" one to boot, regarding constitutional rights in the US?

[xwolfi]

That s the joke, he wasnt talking of any one side. BOTH think the other is evil anti american.

[jollybean]

Responding to my own comment, I can see the commenter was making a 'double sided' point which I failed to see - that said, I think it reads a bit more strongly as one side.

(I fully agree with their satirical point however ... it's just the wording of the examples was a bit off in my purview.)

After listening to a family member scroll through some shocking Facebook tirades today, I'm ready to believe a lot of Americans will believe almost anything about the 'other side', it's tragic.

[cplusplusfellow]

It’s less confusing to me because I specifically do not want to live in a society where people willingly cover half their face. And I most particularly have no interest in living in a country where I am shamed, ridiculed, or outcast for not doing so as well.

Im ok with the repercussions that society may face (eg, higher covid counts etc) to avoid such a society. Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago than the one in black mirror, which I believe we tend to be accelerating towards.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I specifically do not want to live in a society where people cannot willingly cover half their face, especially when they’re sick or it’s flu season. (Not to mentioned during a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands of people in my country.)

Luckily my country is also a representative republic where we can vote for what policies we want. (Although I certainly have issues with the many ways my vote is subverted or rendered less-than others votes based on land.)

[betwixthewires]

You don't really have to vote on whether you're allowed to wear masks for health reasons, only on telling other people the have to. Just wear them if you want, don't if you don't.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

Please reread the parent post that I’m responding to. The post says they don’t wish to live in a society where people willingly mask. This explicitly targets people who would mask without a mandate.

[readflaggedcomm]

Before a couple of years ago, masks were often banned at the local level in the US. There's no good reason for bans or mandates in normal circumstances, and that includes being a democracy.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I don’t understand why you’re responding to me with this point. My point had nothing to do with mandates, only objecting to the desire to ban masks.

[smt88]

Masks were not "often" banned at the local level. Tons of Asian tourists, Muslims, and people in cold places wore them.

[it_does_follow]

> Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago

I think you have your causality mixed up a bit.

When I was younger I would take my coat off in the cold early spring to protest the fact that it hadn't warmed up enough, and, mostly in jest, insist that it was taking your coat off that harked warmer weather (when obviously the reverse is true).

In this case you are trying to do this same with masks, hasten the end of something you don't like by pretending it isn't happening. Unfortunately this ultimately makes a worse world for the both of you.

You obviously aren't the "monster", the monster is the thing that scares you so much you lose all reason, and confuse your causal arrows so much.

It's unfortunate that the world is in a state of decline right now, and I understand wanting to turn it back. But like all people who have tried to stop change by resisting you only ultimately end up making it worse.

It's because you can't accept the way the world is changing that it will progress this way faster.

[forgotmyoldname]

That's fine, but in some places, that's basically saying you're the type of person to walk through dirty streets barefoot. No matter how #freethefoot and for personal choice you may be, people won't want you bringing your dirty feet and whatever they carry into their home.

[jollybean]

I think you're looking for another example!

Walking in the world barefoot is a natural and normal thing. We should all probably be doing more of it, not shaming people for it.

The issue is mostly one of public health that has materially adverse affects on others.

Maybe it would be like driving on the highway without snowtires in the winter: it's reckless and you're going to hurt people. I think if most of us saw that happening (it happens) it kind of makes you mad to see how irresponsible it is.

Also the commentor above wrote about 'voting' concerning masks - it's not such a simple issue.

Democracy is not a 'Tyranny of the Majority'. It's why we have Constitutions etc.. Requiring people to do stuff in the normal course of their day is a pretty big step, we have to be mindful of regulating normative behaviours. It's easy to let rights slide away, we should have a bit better of a process for these kinds of things, and maybe tuck in a couple of laws after this is over for that purpose because the Courts don't have a lot to work with on a lot of these things.

[throwaway675309]

One in three women dying in childbirth used to be a "natural" thing too, doesn't mean that we should give up modern medical care.

[smt88]

The masking is temporary and in limited situations. People don't think you're a monster for not wearing one, they think you're a selfish baby.

[cplusplusfellow]

Someone could start by giving me data points that show if I’m asymptomatic and not exposed to someone with covid that I’m being “selfish” for not adopting your disposition of fear.

[smt88]

1. There are thousands of articles, studies, tweets, blog posts, and essays that explain all of this to you. If you were sincerely interested in educating yourself on this topic, you easily could be.

2. Covid can spread asymptomatically. Again, if you were sincerely interested in understanding this topic, you would know that extremely basic fact.

3. You have no way to know whether you were exposed to someone with Covid or not, unless you are never around other people. If you're never around other people, masks are a moot point, anyway.

4. We have been forced to wear (sometimes uncomfortable) clothing in public places due to fear for a long time. Women can't go into restaurants topless, even if it's not a city law. Fear-based or not, you don't get to decide whether you wear a mask on private land.

[leishman]

There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.

[fivea]

> There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.

If you really want to parrot that line, the very least you need to do is get informed about the issue you're trying to discuss.

Vaccines are safe and effective in training your immune system to handle a COVID-19 infection. That's how vaccines work. They are not, nor they ever were, a silver bullet that stops everyone from catching the disease and transmitting it to everyone the come across.

To put it very clearly and unambiguously to you, vaccines don't stop the virus from spreading, they only improve your chances of not dying from it.

Also, it's disingenuous to pretend that the current generation of vaccines, which was developed for the original Wuhan strain, also have the same effectiveness against subsequent strains such as the Delta and now Omicron strains.

Your blend of vocal ignorance is tiring. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith. A brief one-minute read on the topic is enough to clear up any possible misconception regarding the topic. Is that too much to ask?

[forgotmyoldname]

It's like saying you don't need to wash your hands because the food is cooked and hot.

[smt88]

Why one or the other?

The primary goal of masks is to reduce transmission.

The primary goal of vaccines is to reduce deaths.

Vaccines reduce deaths very well, but they only modestly reduce transmission. Using both together is much more effective and inexpensive than only using vaccines or natural immunity.

[elisbce]

Yeah, when we are two years into the pandemic, with 5.4 million deaths and over 280 million infections by COVID, with tens of millions of health workers globally working long hours and overtime in their sweat-filled protective gowns and gears, all you could care about is whether your daughter can see a world with faces uncovered.

If people can just stop their BS, get vaxxed, cover their face, and avoid gatherings, the pandemic would be over in a month, and we wouldn't need to do all this shit, would we?

[nradov]

That is misinformation. While I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, the vaccines don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. The main benefit is in reducing severe symptoms. Likewise face masks only marginally reduce the risks of transmission in individual interactions. But since the virus is endemic it will never be "over". Everyone can expect to be exposed periodically. You can't expect people to wear masks forever.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

[fivea]

> Likewise face masks only marginally reduce the risks of transmission in individual interactions.

Even if your personal assertion regarding the effectiveness of facial masks in containing COVID spread had any bearing in reality, don't you believe that such a low effort/high reward move is well justified given the current public health scenario, and more importantly the need to avoid escalating to higher-impact measures?

This irrational opposition to facial masks reads like ranting against other basic personal higiene etiquette, such as covering coughs and sneezes.

[jollybean]

" the vaccines don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. "

I think his is actually misleading.

The vaccines significantly reduce transmission overall - mostly due to the fact people are much less likely to get COVID in the first place if they are vaccinated.

Where you can maybe have a point, is that people who are vaccinated - who do get COVID - may transmit it at the same rate as those who were unvaccinated and infected. Maybe.

But this is a secondary effect to the first order issue, which is that vaccines significantly reduce infections in the first place, and therefore reduces R0.

Yes, cloth masks are marginal, but they are at least 'another layer' of protection.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

[leishman]

I completely agree. It’s concerning how eager and compliant people are with these nonsensical mandates. These last two years hammered home to me that there are way more people than I thought who either enjoy dominating other people or who like being told what to do.

[tharkun__]

It's a little bit weird if you ask me. I totally get you and your parent's sentiment of "they push me, so I push back". I think that's a natural reflex of many people and a good one as well. I'm much the same in many situations. If you simply tell me and push me to do X, I will push back, simply because you did not explain yourself. It's a principled thing. We're not in the military and I didn't sign up for this.

Explain yourself, give me reasoning and talk to me about pros and cons of various things and we can probably get along very well.

Now there's a problem here. While you can debate such things with me and you and and many other people, there are also a lot of people out there that just do not respond at all to that. I would argue it's actually most people and that is what politicians have to deal with. That sucks for you and me.

I think wearing a mask indoors makes absolute sense. We can debate whether a cloth, surgical mask or N95 mask are in order but some type of mask that goes over mouth _and_ nose just makes sense given the airborne nature of this and other viruses. I will readily admit that I always found it weird seeing Asians running around w/ a surgical mask when they think they're sick w/ something but I've come to realize that it just made sense. They're doing the right thing.

I don't think putting alcohol on my hands multiple times a day is great for my skin or the natural skin bacterial flora at all but I really like the fact that I've seen less people run past the hand sanitizer at the store than people leaving the washrooms without washing their hands.

Are you telling me that you're one of those people that go to the toilet and don't wash up? I'm sorry but I don't want to second hand touch your junk! Ever!

[chrischen]

Masks and general do-care care attitude with regards to personal air space and sanitary space.

[nradov]

That is incorrect. Japanese people don't wear masks all the time everywhere. Please stop spreading misinformation.

[fivea]

> That is incorrect. Japanese people don't wear masks all the time everywhere. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Can you please point out precisely which OP's point you feel classifies as "misinformation"?

https://m.dw.com/en/how-japans-mask-culture-may-have-saved-l...

[forgotmyoldname]

Japan under-tested a lot pre-Olympics in a desperate attempt to salvage the event. After that point they had no more reason to hide the data. Tests that have been carried out since show very low positive rates, so there likely aren't too many hidden, untested cases out there.

[washadjeffmad]

There appears to be a genetic component in certain populations.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Genetic-factor...

Also, underreporting and asymptomatic rates are much higher than initially assumed.