[cplusplusfellow]

It’s less confusing to me because I specifically do not want to live in a society where people willingly cover half their face. And I most particularly have no interest in living in a country where I am shamed, ridiculed, or outcast for not doing so as well.

Im ok with the repercussions that society may face (eg, higher covid counts etc) to avoid such a society. Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago than the one in black mirror, which I believe we tend to be accelerating towards.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I specifically do not want to live in a society where people cannot willingly cover half their face, especially when they’re sick or it’s flu season. (Not to mentioned during a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands of people in my country.)

Luckily my country is also a representative republic where we can vote for what policies we want. (Although I certainly have issues with the many ways my vote is subverted or rendered less-than others votes based on land.)

[betwixthewires]

You don't really have to vote on whether you're allowed to wear masks for health reasons, only on telling other people the have to. Just wear them if you want, don't if you don't.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

Please reread the parent post that I’m responding to. The post says they don’t wish to live in a society where people willingly mask. This explicitly targets people who would mask without a mandate.

[betwixthewires]

Yeah you're right. Apologies.

[readflaggedcomm]

Before a couple of years ago, masks were often banned at the local level in the US. There's no good reason for bans or mandates in normal circumstances, and that includes being a democracy.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I don’t understand why you’re responding to me with this point. My point had nothing to do with mandates, only objecting to the desire to ban masks.

[smt88]

Masks were not "often" banned at the local level. Tons of Asian tourists, Muslims, and people in cold places wore them.

[it_does_follow]

> Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago

I think you have your causality mixed up a bit.

When I was younger I would take my coat off in the cold early spring to protest the fact that it hadn't warmed up enough, and, mostly in jest, insist that it was taking your coat off that harked warmer weather (when obviously the reverse is true).

In this case you are trying to do this same with masks, hasten the end of something you don't like by pretending it isn't happening. Unfortunately this ultimately makes a worse world for the both of you.

You obviously aren't the "monster", the monster is the thing that scares you so much you lose all reason, and confuse your causal arrows so much.

It's unfortunate that the world is in a state of decline right now, and I understand wanting to turn it back. But like all people who have tried to stop change by resisting you only ultimately end up making it worse.

It's because you can't accept the way the world is changing that it will progress this way faster.

[forgotmyoldname]

That's fine, but in some places, that's basically saying you're the type of person to walk through dirty streets barefoot. No matter how #freethefoot and for personal choice you may be, people won't want you bringing your dirty feet and whatever they carry into their home.

[jollybean]

I think you're looking for another example!

Walking in the world barefoot is a natural and normal thing. We should all probably be doing more of it, not shaming people for it.

The issue is mostly one of public health that has materially adverse affects on others.

Maybe it would be like driving on the highway without snowtires in the winter: it's reckless and you're going to hurt people. I think if most of us saw that happening (it happens) it kind of makes you mad to see how irresponsible it is.

Also the commentor above wrote about 'voting' concerning masks - it's not such a simple issue.

Democracy is not a 'Tyranny of the Majority'. It's why we have Constitutions etc.. Requiring people to do stuff in the normal course of their day is a pretty big step, we have to be mindful of regulating normative behaviours. It's easy to let rights slide away, we should have a bit better of a process for these kinds of things, and maybe tuck in a couple of laws after this is over for that purpose because the Courts don't have a lot to work with on a lot of these things.

[throwaway675309]

One in three women dying in childbirth used to be a "natural" thing too, doesn't mean that we should give up modern medical care.

[jollybean]

That has nothing to do with my comment.

[smt88]

The masking is temporary and in limited situations. People don't think you're a monster for not wearing one, they think you're a selfish baby.

[cplusplusfellow]

Someone could start by giving me data points that show if I’m asymptomatic and not exposed to someone with covid that I’m being “selfish” for not adopting your disposition of fear.

[smt88]

1. There are thousands of articles, studies, tweets, blog posts, and essays that explain all of this to you. If you were sincerely interested in educating yourself on this topic, you easily could be.

2. Covid can spread asymptomatically. Again, if you were sincerely interested in understanding this topic, you would know that extremely basic fact.

3. You have no way to know whether you were exposed to someone with Covid or not, unless you are never around other people. If you're never around other people, masks are a moot point, anyway.

4. We have been forced to wear (sometimes uncomfortable) clothing in public places due to fear for a long time. Women can't go into restaurants topless, even if it's not a city law. Fear-based or not, you don't get to decide whether you wear a mask on private land.

[leishman]

There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.

[fivea]

> There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.

If you really want to parrot that line, the very least you need to do is get informed about the issue you're trying to discuss.

Vaccines are safe and effective in training your immune system to handle a COVID-19 infection. That's how vaccines work. They are not, nor they ever were, a silver bullet that stops everyone from catching the disease and transmitting it to everyone the come across.

To put it very clearly and unambiguously to you, vaccines don't stop the virus from spreading, they only improve your chances of not dying from it.

Also, it's disingenuous to pretend that the current generation of vaccines, which was developed for the original Wuhan strain, also have the same effectiveness against subsequent strains such as the Delta and now Omicron strains.

Your blend of vocal ignorance is tiring. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith. A brief one-minute read on the topic is enough to clear up any possible misconception regarding the topic. Is that too much to ask?

[forgotmyoldname]

It's like saying you don't need to wash your hands because the food is cooked and hot.

[smt88]

Why one or the other?

The primary goal of masks is to reduce transmission.

The primary goal of vaccines is to reduce deaths.

Vaccines reduce deaths very well, but they only modestly reduce transmission. Using both together is much more effective and inexpensive than only using vaccines or natural immunity.

[elisbce]

Yeah, when we are two years into the pandemic, with 5.4 million deaths and over 280 million infections by COVID, with tens of millions of health workers globally working long hours and overtime in their sweat-filled protective gowns and gears, all you could care about is whether your daughter can see a world with faces uncovered.

If people can just stop their BS, get vaxxed, cover their face, and avoid gatherings, the pandemic would be over in a month, and we wouldn't need to do all this shit, would we?

[nradov]

That is misinformation. While I encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated, the vaccines don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. The main benefit is in reducing severe symptoms. Likewise face masks only marginally reduce the risks of transmission in individual interactions. But since the virus is endemic it will never be "over". Everyone can expect to be exposed periodically. You can't expect people to wear masks forever.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

[fivea]

> Likewise face masks only marginally reduce the risks of transmission in individual interactions.

Even if your personal assertion regarding the effectiveness of facial masks in containing COVID spread had any bearing in reality, don't you believe that such a low effort/high reward move is well justified given the current public health scenario, and more importantly the need to avoid escalating to higher-impact measures?

This irrational opposition to facial masks reads like ranting against other basic personal higiene etiquette, such as covering coughs and sneezes.

[josephcsible]

How did you get "high reward" from "only marginally reduce the risks"? Also, do you wear glasses? Masks are way worse if you do.

> This irrational opposition to facial masks reads like ranting against covering coughs and sneezes.

To me, it feels more like if you got told to keep your mouth covered all the time because sometimes you suddenly cough or sneeze.

[fivea]

> How did you get "high reward" from "only marginally reduce the risks"?

Don't you believe that reducing or outright eliminating the chance that a single person you come across to not experience hospitalization or death due to covid constitutes a worthy reward given the tradeoff?

> Also, do you wear glasses?

Why do you feel this is relevant?

[josephcsible]

> Don't you believe that reducing or outright eliminating the chance that a single person you come across to not experience hospitalization or death due to covid constitutes a worthy reward given the tradeoff?

I agree that reducing the risk constitutes a reward. I don't agree it constitutes a high reward, since the reduction is only marginal.

> > Also, do you wear glasses?

> Why do you feel this is relevant?

Based on this response, I assume that you don't wear glasses, or you'd know exactly why it's relevant: masks make them fog up all the time.

[jollybean]

" the vaccines don't reliably prevent infection or transmission. "

I think his is actually misleading.

The vaccines significantly reduce transmission overall - mostly due to the fact people are much less likely to get COVID in the first place if they are vaccinated.

Where you can maybe have a point, is that people who are vaccinated - who do get COVID - may transmit it at the same rate as those who were unvaccinated and infected. Maybe.

But this is a secondary effect to the first order issue, which is that vaccines significantly reduce infections in the first place, and therefore reduces R0.

Yes, cloth masks are marginal, but they are at least 'another layer' of protection.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

[leishman]

I completely agree. It’s concerning how eager and compliant people are with these nonsensical mandates. These last two years hammered home to me that there are way more people than I thought who either enjoy dominating other people or who like being told what to do.

[tharkun__]

It's a little bit weird if you ask me. I totally get you and your parent's sentiment of "they push me, so I push back". I think that's a natural reflex of many people and a good one as well. I'm much the same in many situations. If you simply tell me and push me to do X, I will push back, simply because you did not explain yourself. It's a principled thing. We're not in the military and I didn't sign up for this.

Explain yourself, give me reasoning and talk to me about pros and cons of various things and we can probably get along very well.

Now there's a problem here. While you can debate such things with me and you and and many other people, there are also a lot of people out there that just do not respond at all to that. I would argue it's actually most people and that is what politicians have to deal with. That sucks for you and me.

I think wearing a mask indoors makes absolute sense. We can debate whether a cloth, surgical mask or N95 mask are in order but some type of mask that goes over mouth _and_ nose just makes sense given the airborne nature of this and other viruses. I will readily admit that I always found it weird seeing Asians running around w/ a surgical mask when they think they're sick w/ something but I've come to realize that it just made sense. They're doing the right thing.

I don't think putting alcohol on my hands multiple times a day is great for my skin or the natural skin bacterial flora at all but I really like the fact that I've seen less people run past the hand sanitizer at the store than people leaving the washrooms without washing their hands.

Are you telling me that you're one of those people that go to the toilet and don't wash up? I'm sorry but I don't want to second hand touch your junk! Ever!