[yunohn]

Given my experience in NL, I would disagree. I see a very clear class divide here, which is just mostly ignored by the middle/upper classes and government.

Most of the population spend the majority of their income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house.

Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families do not own much at all.

Since the Mobility Index rankings focus on lower -> middle class mobility, it shows the Netherlands in a positive light. However, the income divide between the two classes is actually not as pronounced as the USA, while the gap between middle to upper is incredibly massive (like most of the world).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that despite the expected policy differences and rankings, NL is quite strongly divided economically. In my experience, the average Dutch don't mix with the poor, nor show off their riches, nor think too deeply about the elite classes. This mindset is essentially ignorance - neglecting poorness, brushing off government corruption, and assisting the funneling of taxes & wealth.

[charlesdm]

You forgot to mention you do have a wealth tax. For wealthy people, those tend to be one of the "worst" taxes, because it is payable regardless of whether your investments do well or bad.

[yunohn]

You’re right, I missed commenting on the Wealth tax.

However, it’s equally ineffective - there are multitudes of ways to avoid paying it, as the wealthy here continuously do. Further, the percentage itself is quite small:

- 0.58% for 30k-100k

- 1.34% till ~1MM

- 1.68% afterwards.

It is hilarious to me, that 30k is considered “wealth”. This means saving for your children’s studying expenses (rent, food, etc), would require exceeding 30k and paying taxes.

The wealthy are wealthy. It doesn’t seem to affect them at all. Instead, people like you and I have to think about the arbitrary amount of money the gov wants to extricate from our small savings.

[actually_a_dog]

> Most of the population spend the majority of their income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house.

> Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families do not own much at all.

I hate to tell you, but the US practically invented all those issues. Average Americans pay a far larger percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthiest Americans or corporations do. You say VAT, we say "sales tax," and, yes, it's still just as regressive. Rent, student loans, etc.... yeah, that's all bad here, too.

https://smartasset.com/data-studies/income-needed-to-pay-ren...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/09/us-student-l...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/23/americas-richest-400-familie...

[yunohn]

> the US practically invented all these issues

I don’t believe that the Netherlands has inherited these ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism and stock markets.

Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here, loves comparing themselves to the USA memes. It’s that whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.

[actually_a_dog]

> I don’t believe that the Netherlands has inherited these ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism and stock markets.

Of course, I'm aware that NL invented stock markets and pioneered a lot of ideas behind modern capitalism. That wasn't where I was going with it.

Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest of "my country is worse than yours," but, if you look at the numbers, the US fares worse than NL on:

Gini coefficient [0]: US 41.4 vs NL 28.1

Global social mobility index [1]: US 70.4 vs NL 82.4

Human development index [2]: US 0.92 vs NL 0.944

Now, I don't think capitalism is the best system for maximizing any of the above, but, if you look at the tables, it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of capitalism is basically as good as capitalism gets. When you look at some of the things that go into these indices, other than stuff like "GDP per capita," it's pretty clear why: having a strong safety net and other social programs for workers makes people better off.

If nothing else, reducing the consequences of failure from "total personal and financial ruin" to something more manageable is more likely to encourage people to take chances that may or may not pay off. That's what economic freedom really is. That's also the part of capitalism the US didn't pick up, so, that's what I was getting at when I was saying that the US invented those issues. Again, not to get into an anti-pissing contest, but, that's why the US recently got compared to Jurassic Park [3] on here. I don't see anybody comparing NL to a land where dinosaurs will eat you if you're not always vigilant.

> Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here, loves comparing themselves to the USA memes. It’s that whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd like to know. Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying what I said, but without the facts and figures?

---

[0]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef...

[1]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mo...

[2]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-co...

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29656668

[yunohn]

> Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest of "my country is worse than yours,"

Fair enough, though I wasn’t trying to imply that either.

> it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of capitalism is basically as good as capitalism gets

I can agree from the data and personal experience, that the QoL for the lower/middle classes in the EU is better than most of the world.

However, I don’t think that it’s as pronounced as the local EU politicians would have you believe, when they advocate for higher taxes every year.

That’s essentially the divide I’m talking about in my comments - the broken capitalist dystopia of it all. They set the benchmark somewhere in between the USA and the post-colonial world, and act like they’ve solved everything.

> reducing the consequences of failure from "total personal and financial ruin" to something more manageable is more likely to encourage people to take chances that may or may not pay off. That's what economic freedom really is.

Yes, I agree that this sounds intuitive. Unfortunately, the EU has one of the least risk-taking people I’ve ever seen. People don’t startup nor attempt businesses.

> Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying what I said, but without the facts and figures?

Not exactly, but rather, they are unaware of the situation outside their social bubble in NL. And see memes about the USA and think they’re doing great.

[Aeolun]

I loved living in NL (am Dutch), and would love to move back there, but financially it just doesn’t make sense.

Found it really hard to explain to my wife that:

Salary will decrease, cost of living will go up, income taxes will go up, VAT will also go up, QOL will stay roughly the same.

The only thing that I think is significantly better (and cheaper!) is the education.

Edit: And the beer.

[fundad]

QOL staying the same is quite attractive.

Out of curiosity, how many millions of dollars-equivalent does it cost to buy heath insurance in retirement?

Isn’t that more attractive than what you need in the states?

[yunohn]

> QOL staying the same is quite attractive.

I can’t speak for the OP, but usually QoL refers to essential things like housing, food, education, etc. Outside of that, the average Dutchie has very little disposable income.

This means that the extra money they make in the USA, is still quite useful since you can spend it on all the other stuff that gives you joy in life.

[fundad]

Rising costs for housing, food and education is a huge problem in the US

[Rebelgecko]

What do Medicare supplements cost, like $100-$500/month? If health insurance is your primary reason to leave the US, it might make sense to spend years working in a job that offers health insurance after you retire, or moving to a lower COL area within the US (medical costs in rural Texas are drastically cheaper than San Francisco, for example)

[fundad]

Medicare 20 or more years from now? The eligibility age will be raised by 100 years before we know it.

[Aeolun]

I live in Japan, health insurance is quite good ;)

[garmaine]

> Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average)

Those are amateur numbers. -USA

[yunohn]

I know loads of students with more debt, but indeed, it’s less than the USA. Not an acceptable amount regardless.

[garmaine]

Really? That seems something that could be paid off pretty easily. Not like US student debt which is the size of house in value.

[yunohn]

The median income in NL is barely 30k, and savings are very low. An average loan of 15k is quite expensive for most.

I think the worst part is that most of the loan is used to pay rent - so it’s essentially tax-payer funded wealth transfer to real estate.