[actually_a_dog]

> Most of the population spend the majority of their income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house.

> Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families do not own much at all.

I hate to tell you, but the US practically invented all those issues. Average Americans pay a far larger percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthiest Americans or corporations do. You say VAT, we say "sales tax," and, yes, it's still just as regressive. Rent, student loans, etc.... yeah, that's all bad here, too.

https://smartasset.com/data-studies/income-needed-to-pay-ren...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/09/us-student-l...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/23/americas-richest-400-familie...

[yunohn]

> the US practically invented all these issues

I don’t believe that the Netherlands has inherited these ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism and stock markets.

Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here, loves comparing themselves to the USA memes. It’s that whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.

[actually_a_dog]

> I don’t believe that the Netherlands has inherited these ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism and stock markets.

Of course, I'm aware that NL invented stock markets and pioneered a lot of ideas behind modern capitalism. That wasn't where I was going with it.

Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest of "my country is worse than yours," but, if you look at the numbers, the US fares worse than NL on:

Gini coefficient [0]: US 41.4 vs NL 28.1

Global social mobility index [1]: US 70.4 vs NL 82.4

Human development index [2]: US 0.92 vs NL 0.944

Now, I don't think capitalism is the best system for maximizing any of the above, but, if you look at the tables, it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of capitalism is basically as good as capitalism gets. When you look at some of the things that go into these indices, other than stuff like "GDP per capita," it's pretty clear why: having a strong safety net and other social programs for workers makes people better off.

If nothing else, reducing the consequences of failure from "total personal and financial ruin" to something more manageable is more likely to encourage people to take chances that may or may not pay off. That's what economic freedom really is. That's also the part of capitalism the US didn't pick up, so, that's what I was getting at when I was saying that the US invented those issues. Again, not to get into an anti-pissing contest, but, that's why the US recently got compared to Jurassic Park [3] on here. I don't see anybody comparing NL to a land where dinosaurs will eat you if you're not always vigilant.

> Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here, loves comparing themselves to the USA memes. It’s that whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd like to know. Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying what I said, but without the facts and figures?

---

[0]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef...

[1]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mo...

[2]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-co...

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29656668

[yunohn]

> Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest of "my country is worse than yours,"

Fair enough, though I wasn’t trying to imply that either.

> it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of capitalism is basically as good as capitalism gets

I can agree from the data and personal experience, that the QoL for the lower/middle classes in the EU is better than most of the world.

However, I don’t think that it’s as pronounced as the local EU politicians would have you believe, when they advocate for higher taxes every year.

That’s essentially the divide I’m talking about in my comments - the broken capitalist dystopia of it all. They set the benchmark somewhere in between the USA and the post-colonial world, and act like they’ve solved everything.

> reducing the consequences of failure from "total personal and financial ruin" to something more manageable is more likely to encourage people to take chances that may or may not pay off. That's what economic freedom really is.

Yes, I agree that this sounds intuitive. Unfortunately, the EU has one of the least risk-taking people I’ve ever seen. People don’t startup nor attempt businesses.

> Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying what I said, but without the facts and figures?

Not exactly, but rather, they are unaware of the situation outside their social bubble in NL. And see memes about the USA and think they’re doing great.