[JohnCurran]

> Concentrate on learning words, not on grammar

I have to disagree with this. If you focus on just learning words in a target language, you just become a foreign language dictionary. Knowing how to say "train station" in Spanish doesn't help when you can't use it properly in a sentence.

I think Michel Thomas has a fairly succinct take on the topic: “If you know how to handle verbs you know how to handle the language. Everything else is just vocabulary”. Although he is a somewhat controversial figure in regards to claimed past achievements, his system for language learning works well. Don't worry about amassing large amounts of vocabulary at the outset, just use words like "it" (Where is it / What is it / I can do it). You can swap out "it" for any other noun you learn later on.

[cgag]

Anyone who learns enough vocabulary to be something resembling fluent (say, can comfortably watch tv shows or read books in that language), will be good at grammar far before they learn the 10k+ words they need to know. You can't consume enough of the language to acquire that kind of vocabulary and not have a decent intuition for the grammar.

I don't advocate ignoring grammar, but you really just need awareness of the basics, not to spend time doing drills or filling in blanks.

[aix1]

What really jumped out at me in your comment is that its definition of fluency (watch tv shows, read books) focuses on comprehension and appears to completely ignore being able to produce anything in the target language.

[viburnum]

When learning languages I used to focus on the grammar because it was most interesting to me (and words you can always look up in a dictionary). But for the most recent language I’ve attempted I’ve focused on just learning a ton of vocabulary and it’s made a huge and positive difference. Simply knowing a lot of words means you can read newspapers and twitter or whatever and allows you more chances to see the grammar in action.

[yosito]

For sure! When I learn a langauge, I find word frequency list "100 most common verbs", "100 most common nouns", etc. You really don't need more vocabulary than that. You can find a way to commumicate anything with a relatively small vocabulary. Once you have a base vocabulary, you can start practicing grammar and actual usage, and your vocabulary will naturally skyrocket without any additional vocabulary memorization.

[BossingAround]

> You really don't need more vocabulary than that.

What do you want to do with the language? Do you want to be able to book a hotel? Because if that's your goal, then you're probably correct. Then again, you can probably do that in English anywhere in the world.

However, if your goal is to communicate, you won't be able to get by with 200 words. Just try to watch an episode of Friends with a non-native speaker.

> "Just a pinch!"

A: "What is a pinch"?

B: "A little"

A: "Ah! They should say little!"

(Though the conversation above is highly contrived since you wouldn't be able to understand the vast majority of Friends with at the very least 2000 - 3000 words)

[louhike]

Exactly and that’s the big problem when people talk about learning a language. For some, to learn a language is to be able to get by on a trip. Sure you can do that on 3 months. But being able to have conversations on advanced topics, read books or watch movies? Good luck, unless you spend 6 hours everyday, immerse yourselves and use good ressources. And you’ll actually probably be at the level of a middle schooler. Really learn a language is quite hard (pitch accent, new sounds, specific grammar, concepts which can’t be translated). And even experts spent years to master one.

[yosito]

Fair, you're not gonna give a speech with 200 words, but if it's the right 200 words (the most used ones) you can find a way to communicate almost anything. My point is that with memorizing just 200 words, there are creative ways to express everything and you can use that as a good base to start using the language and your progress will grow exponentially from there with minimal memorization. With 200 words of English, you might not know what "a pinch" is, but you know enough to have the conversation and figure it out even if the person you're talking to only speaks English.

[throwaway55421]

This is true for speaking but listening is impossible.

The vast majority of people do not speak using the simple terms that are in those 100 top lists.

As an example - I would guess that from my previous sentence, "vast", "majority", "simple", "terms", "lists" and possibly more would not be present, and that's in only one relatively simple sentence.

I can "speak in" probably ten languages, but I'd only say I can really _speak_ bidirectionally in one or possibly two.

[yosito]

> The vast majority of people do not speak using the simple terms that are in those 100 top lists.

It really depends who you're talking to. I've seen claims, and I believe them, that in many languages the average person has about a 500 word vocabulary that they're using on a daily basis.

Someone who is more educated than the average person is likely to use a larger vocabulary, but they're also more likely to be able to simplify their speech to accomodate you and make it possible for you to communicate with them.

[throwaway55421]

Yes, but this is really distinct from understanding a language.

You might be able to have a very basic one on one conversation with someone who is speaking directly to you.

Now sit in the corner at a bar, party, in a conference, lecture hall, or even watch a movie without subtitles, and try to understand anything at all. In most if not all languages that's impossible with a 500 word vocab.

[somewhereoutth]

Verbs become a bit tricky when they are heavily inflected, with the most common having the most irregularities. Collisions become a problem too, it's almost as if a heavily inflected language, with a fairly consistent root vocabulary, quickly runs out of distinct syllable combinations. E.g. Portuguese, and presumably the other romance languages. Compare the past perfect of 'to go' and 'to be' in Portuguese - they are identical for all persons.

Getting the wrong inflection ruins any sense you're trying to make!

[chalcolithic]

My Spanish is like that - my vocab is about a hundred words and I'm very comfortable using it but native speakers are not amused and there have been cases when I literally was asked to speak any other language

[yosito]

But the point is, if you were to find yourself in the countryside of a Spanish speaking country with only Spanish speakers around, you could find a way communicate what you need to survive. And 2-3 months in that environment, with no English, and you'd be fluent enough to keep up socially.