[smiths1999]

Maybe they are getting tired of arrogant older programmers assuming they cannot possibly be wrong. God forbid a 25 year old might actually have a good idea (and I am far removed from my 20s).

Maybe having S3 redundancy wasn't the most important thing to be tackled? Does your company really need that complexity? Are you so big and such an important service that you cannot possibly risk going down or losing data?

[ramraj07]

You really chose to die on “backups are for old people” as a hill?

[smiths1999]

I'm not sure how you got "backups are for old people" from my post. My point is that there are two sides to this. Perhaps the data being stored on S3 data _was_ backup data and this engineer was proposing replicating the backup data to GCP. That's probably not the highest priority for most companies. Maybe the OP was right and the other engineers were wrong. Who knows.

In my experience, the kind of person that argues about "arrogant 25 year olds that know everything" is the kind of person that only sees their side of a discussion and refuses to understand the whole context. Maybe OP was in the right, maybe they weren't. But the fact that they are focusing on age and making ad hominem attacks is a red flag in my book.

[ramraj07]

I’ve most definitely been in numerous places where arrogant 25 year olds with CS degrees but not smart enough to make it to FAAnG think they know what they are talking about when they don’t. Not every 25yo is an idiot, but many especially in tech think they are smarter than they are because they’re paid these obscene amounts of money.

[exdsq]

I’d love to know what someone works on when the risk of losing data is not worth one or two days engineering work.

[lostcolony]

But that's just it; you can't even have that discussion if the response to "hey, should we be backing up beyond S3 redundancy?" is "No. Why would we? S3 is infallible"

[smiths1999]

Sure you can. As the experienced engineer in that setting it is a great opportunity to teach the less experienced engineers. For example, "I have seen data loss on S3 at my last job. If X, Y, or Z happen then we will lose data. Is this data we can lose? And actually, it is pretty easy to replicate - I think we could get this done in a day or two."

It's also possible the response was "That's an excellent point! I think we should put that on the backlog. Since this data is already a backup of our DB data, I think we should focus on getting the feature out rather than replicating to GCP."

Those are two plausible conversations. Instead, what we have is "these arrogant 25 year olds that have 1-2 years of experience and know it all." That's a red flag to me.

[FpUser]

>"Maybe they are getting tired of arrogant older programmers..."

And this is of course valid reason to ignore basic data preservation approaches.

Myself I am an old fart and I realize that I am too independent / cautious. But I see way too many young programmers who just read sales pitch and honestly believe that once data is on Amazon/Azure/Google it is automatically safe, their apps are automatically scalable, etc. etc.

[smiths1999]

Yes - the point of that line was to be ridiculous. Age has nothing to do with it. Anyone at any age can have good ideas and bad ideas. There are some really incredibly _older_ and highly experienced engineers out there. But there are others that think that experience means they are never wrong. Age has nothing to do with this - what is important is your past experience, your understanding of the problem and then context of the problem, and how you work with your team.

And again, my point isn't that you never need backups. My point is that it is entirely plausible that at that point in time backups from S3 weren't a priority.

[javagram]

Sounds like the kind of short-term thinking that leads to companies being completely wiped out by ransomware. Who needs backups anyway?

[oblio]

It's not a lot of complexity.

Add object versioning for your bucket (1 click) and mirror/sync your bucket to another bucket (a few more clicks).

Yes, your S3 costs will double, but usually they're peanuts compared to all the other costs, anyway.

Debating it takes longer than configuring it.

[nightpool]

As I understand it, Aeonflux was talking about redundant backups outside of S3, which are much more complex.

[exdsq]

Cron-ran SFTP from s3:// to digitalOcean:// ?

[wly_cdgr]

Would you put the one and only copy of your family photo album up on AWS, where AWS going down would mean losing it? Because your customers' data is more important than that

[smiths1999]

AWS going down means I've lost it or temporarily lost access to it? Those are two very different scenarios. Of course S3 could lose data - a quick Google search shows it has happened to at least one account. My guess is it is rare enough that it seems like a reasonable decision to not prioritize backing up your S3 data. I'm not syaing "never ever backup S3 data" only that it seems reasonable to argue it's not the most important thing our team should be working on at this moment.

I have my family photos on a RAIDed NAS. It took me years to get that setup simply because there were higher priority things in my life. I never once thought "ahh I don't need backups of our data" I just had more important things to do.

[Beltiras]

Losing data usually means losing customers. Usually more customers than just whos data you lost.

[smiths1999]

I suppose the caveat is you have to have customers to lose them :) We don't know what the data is or the size of the company.