[Mizza]

This is a really scammy website - I really don't like it.

The goal shouldn't be to make money with Android - it should be to make interesting and high quality software products for your customers.

I should also mention that I make more than $1000 a month, the site's goal, by selling Android apps.

[ryanwaggoner]

You're wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to make money as your primary goal. Most of the best products and services in the world are driven by profit motive. You can tell because they charge for them instead of giving them away. They usually charge a lot for them.

Posts like yours remind me of why developers are the worst market in the world to sell to. Not only will they spend hundreds of dollars of time trying to avoid paying $10 for something, but they'll look down their nose at you for charging in the first place.

Edit: and they'll downvote you for pointing it out :)

[Mizza]

No, I'm not arguing against profit. Profit is good. I like profit!

I should clarify - in software, the quick buck isn't usually a good thing. I think that profit should be the reward for value, and that value comes as the result of hard work.

The bottom-tier application developers are little more than con men in my opinion. And again, these are just my opinions.

[noahc]

^I think that profit should be the reward for value, and that value comes as the result of hard work.

This is factually incorrect. You are correct that profit IS the reward for creating value. However, from your previous posts I'm under the impression that you believe value is objective. The truth is that value is subjective to each person, however IF something is making money it is providing some value.

And, as a result of hard work? That's obviously not true. The value comes from value. The idea that hard work creates value is verifiably wrong. You can choose to work really hard on your startup and yet still not provide any value.

[wpietri]

> IF something is making money it is providing some value.

That's provably false (and a regrettably common belief). Bernie Madoff made buckets of money. Magnetic healing bracelets make money. Psychic surgeons and Nigerian scam artists and spammers make money.

[hessenwolf]

You are talking about fraud, though, for Bernie, scam artists, and possibly spammers. In those cases they are supposed to add value.

Magnetic healing bracelets, well, we all know they work.

[pavel_lishin]

How does his app not match your requirements? It took some fairly hard work (well, he claims) to write the code, it took him a lot of work to actually send out the invites, and people certainly received some value out of the app.

So what should he have done differently?

[jpulgarin]

Why shouldn't the goal be to make money with Android?

[InclinedPlane]

Translate it to another domain: the goal is to make money with email, the goal is to make money with the web, the goal is to make money period. Without any other guidance or any higher goal this can easily lead to spamming, phishing, web content farms, domain squatting, etc.

Is that what you want to do? Or do you want to make money by making something that people value?

[haliax]

Is there any particular reason I shouldn't want to send advertising emails, generate pages, or buy domain names en-masse with the hope of generating revenue? I'm not doing anything harmful (hence the exclusion of phishing) -- and I'm making money.

People value all sorts of ridiculous things like homeopathic "remedies", psychic readings, and bullshit seeds on Farmville, how are those any better than spamming or content farming? I'd argue that the first two, at least, are far worse.

For that matter, how is the threshold of "acceptable value" set so that we don't similarly condemn, Facebook or 37Signals or SEO firms, for doing work of much less value than say, drug discovery or computer security -- especially when these are all within reach of the same CS grads?

Do Google's adwords count as creating value? Because they're how it makes it's money, search -- which creates value -- is just used to bring people in. If that separation of value creation/profit is all right, then is it okay to make millions spamming and give it to an efficient charity (as below)? If not, why not?

[cbs]

>Is there any particular reason I shouldn't want to send advertising emails [...] I'm not doing anything harmful

You're substantially raising the cost of using an essential business communication tool (email). Is that not harmful?

[icebraining]

I don't see this app as a problem - it's obviously useful to people and no one is forced to install it if they don't want to. But:

> People value all sorts of ridiculous things like homeopathic "remedies", psychic readings, and bullshit seeds on Farmville, how are those any better than spamming or content farming? I'd argue that the first two, at least, are far worse.

Consent makes all the difference (cue BDSM jokes). You have to make a decision to play Farmville to be harmed by it; spam drains the money and time of everyone.

[dhimes]

I think you and InclinedPlane actually agree here, although your post reads like you are arguing.

[wisty]

OK - your goal should be to make value, and extract some of that value.

Your goal should not be to create something of negligible value, and extract far more than value than you created simply by doing everything you can to shovel other people's money into your pockets.

Some algorithms are greedy - they maximize their returns at every step, without caring about future returns. Greedy algorithms are not the most effective.

[jpulgarin]

That is, in fact, what I want to do. (Making money the most efficient way possible).

[wpietri]

Most efficient for whom? Spamming is efficient for the spammer, but wasteful for everybody else.

Parasitism is very efficient for the parasite. Don't seek just to make money efficiently, or you'll end up a parasite. Instead look to create value as efficiently as possible.

[jpulgarin]

If I want to improve the economy or the world in general then there are much better ways of doing that than to make sure that all my economic transactions are net-positives for the economy. For example, donating some parts of my profit to an efficient charity would be hundreds of time more efficient towards the goal of improving the world, as compared to making sure that my software creates "value".

[InclinedPlane]

If that's your philosophy then why bother following the law at all? As long as you don't get caught it's ok right? There's a ton of money in phishing, scams, and money laundering, why not do those?

[wpietri]

Shockingly incorrect. You're letting the convenient fiction of money (plus shoddy accounting) confuse your thinking. Value is the only thing that matters.

Suppose you spam your way to a million dollars selling fake Viagra. You have created no value. Your customers have all wasted their time. You've also wasted 100x the time of people who didn't buy. There's more waste in computing capacity and bandwidth, plus the time sysadmins spend fighting and cleaning up after. The resources spent hosting and sending the spam were wasted, plus the time and resources spent making fake pills and fake packages.

The general rule of thumb for business is 10% profit on expenses, so let's assume you had to burn $10m of your own resources to make your $1m. Spamming, though, mainly shifts costs elsewhere. Guessing a 5:1 ratio, let's say you wasted $60m to make $1m.

If we suppose that you're a generous parasite, you'll give 10% to charity, 100k. 25% overhead is very good for charities, so we'll say $75k of resources end up improving the world out of the $60m you wasted. Rather than being "hundreds of time more efficient", you're closing in on 100x worse.

[Mizza]

Because if that's your only goal, you end up producing low-quality, mass-produced garbage - "shovelware" - and that's no way to go through life, in my opinion.

[daleharvey]

1. Its pretty presumptious to be telling people what their life goals are

2. Making quality products is not mutually exclusive from building quality products, I hate to bring them up as an example but not many people could argue that apple produces mass produced garbage, and they do fairly well on the money side.

[obviator]

I'm actually the guy running the site, so just thought I'd add my 2 cents :) With this site, the main focus is building a business model around Android development - "making money" with Android. That's not to say app quality has to go out the door. In my experience, you can't really build a sustainable business around crappy products. So it's in my best interests to keep up the quality, even if the business development is the stated goal (and the one I'll write most about).

Agree with you 100% that quality is key to success. I just chose to focus on the business & financial side of things, since at the time I started this blog there weren't many people writing about their experiences with Android.

[rblackwater]

I was on your side until you started pretending that "completing offers" is even remotely close to "quality app".

[jamesbritt]

Does "low-quality, mass-produced garbage" make a developer more money than quality apps?

I'm skeptical, but I don't have figures. Still, a race to the bottom and near-zero margins, because crap is easy to replicate, seems like a bad plan for real profits.

[Mizza]

In the long run, no, I don't think low quality apps make more money than by high quality ones. But that's not to say that there isn't any money to be made by selling garbage.

I'm not saying that it's bad to make money - quite the opposite! All I'm saying is that shitty software sucks. Writing it sucks, selling it sucks, buying it sucks and using it sucks. Build cool stuff instead.

[wladimir]

I admire your attitude, in trying to make quality software instead of the shovelware and scamware we all know. Making money is important, but that doesn't mean you have to throw out all your standards as engineer just to squish out every last penny.

Sure, with enough marketing, spinning, social engineering you can make anything sell well, but if customers feel screwed they'll eventually avoid you like the plague. At least that is what I believe.

(yes -- I know you can also state the opposite "there is a sucker born every minute, have suckers as your target audience". But I don't work that way)

[jpulgarin]

I don't inherently value well-made software. If writing "shovelware" makes me the most money, which in turn allows me to do the things I do inherently value, then that is the rational thing for me to do.

[0x12]

Imagine, people 'just' trying to make money. One mans interesting is another mans garbage and the other way around.

[clarky07]

Why on earth should making money not be the goal of a business? You'll find that to make a successful long term business quality is key. Just because there are crappy apps out there doesn't mean those are the ones making money.