[crucialfelix]

As a former hipster (and music subculture producer) I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifeless bullshit and we wanted to express something new that only we could sense. We were being us, not "not them".

Decades later, it's what the mainstream now sounds like. It always percolates up.

[eightysixfour]

I won't suggest that you did not FEEL that way when you were doing it, but what you just wrote sounds exactly what I said in socially-coded language.

> I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifeless bullshit

Here you state that the mainstream elite was "lifeless bullshit."

> we wanted to express something new

And you wanted to express NOT lifeless bullshit.

> that only we could sense. We were being us

This is what the mainstream elite couldn't see or make. It was NOT mainstream elite thought.

> it's what the mainstream now sounds like

The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit. This is not part of the Graeber thesis, but aligns well with the original post.

I also want to be clear that I don't think this is supposed to be a conscious process - there are times when people are intentionally contrarian but there are also people and groups who are unconsciously contrarian simply by saying "I don't like this thing."

[jancsika]

> The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit.

That doesn't follow.

1. a blues singer listens to mainstream

2. a blues singer hears a variety of blues influences on the mainstream

3. a blues singer says, "Hey great, we got some blues influences in the mainstream, let me try to add some more"

[eightysixfour]

What? I think we're talking about different processes and different time frames. The blues musician who just wants to be popular/mainstream isn't really what I'm going for, because they stop at step 2:

1. "Hipster" creates music that is anti-mainsteam, becomes popular for doing something different (and doing it well, at the right time/place, etc.)

2. Over years, mainstream music adopts unique thing hipster did. <- this is where you stop

3 New generation of hipsters create music that is anti-mainstream... <- this is what is relevant to this discussion

You can find examples of the above in any modern genre of music and I would argue is a part of a bigger pattern that happens to any sub/counter culture.

[crucialfelix]

I agree, its a different framing of the same process.

On further reflection there was a lot of deliberate removal of pop or mainstream rave signals. We were excluding their signals to create our own space. Minimal Techno is pretty much defined by it's rules of what isn't allowed. So that's conscious differentiation.

[oblak]

Exactly. OP is the poster child for lack of self awareness