[dablweb]

Uh, we don't really have a control group anymore. This whole rollout has been rife with callous disregard for the usual protocols.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430...

The severity of vaccine-induced myocarditis is far worse than virus-induced too. You have to have a very severe infection for the spike protein to accumulate in your heart, whereas the LNP delivery system gravitates to the heart due to its fat content. We have seen this in various biodistribution studies.

[fabian2k]

The severity of the myocarditis after vaccines was generally described as mild.

I also strongly doubt your statements about spike protein distribution, all cells have lipid membranes. The vaccine is injected into the muscle in your arm. Why would it accumulate in the heart?

And it is not unusual that you can't do real placebo studies once you have a very effective treatment. Denying effective treatment to people just to be able to do these studies would be extremely unethical.

[elric]

> I also strongly doubt your statements about spike protein distribution, all cells have lipid membranes. The vaccine is injected into the muscle in your arm. Why would it accumulate in the heart?

I was under the impression that accidental injection into the bloodstream was likely the culprit. The linked study doesn't speculate on a mechanism however.

The odds of hitting a blood vessel seem pretty small, and the odds of adverse reactions when it does happen also seem pretty small. The article claims an incidence rate of 1-10 per million.

[native_samples]

I wonder though. I know someone under 40 who has complained of heart arrhythmia, sudden severe fatigue and a squeezing pressure on his chest. He had Moderna but it happened >7 days afterwards. He never reported it because he assumed it was psychological instead and that doctors would dismiss it with anti-depressants.

The paper doesn't give a rate for this type of thing, only for people who went to hospital. But if this is really one-in-a-million stuff I really wonder how I happen to know someone who has it. Also there are only ~21 million software developers in the world, HN has only a fraction of them reading let alone commenting and yet this thread is filling up with people describing the exact same thing that happened to my friend.

I find it hard to believe these things are really as rare as they're implying. Perhaps there's a reason they don't give rates for the "squeeze+tiredness+irregular heartbeat" problem.

[NikolaeVarius]

> But if this is really one-in-a-million stuff I really wonder how I happen to know someone who has it

Do we teach statistics in school anymore? This is such a nonsensical remark.

[Khelavaster]

That's perfectly well-grounded. If a large chunk of your acquaintances were to be predisposed to something due to selection bias, you might be in similar groups and be predisposed to similar things.

[viraptor]

From what I managed to find out, the IV injection is flagged as a danger only for AZ and due to clot risk, not due to inflammation risk. At least that's the idea behind aspiration before injection in Denmark.

[jb1991]

> The vaccine is injected into the muscle in your arm. Why would it accumulate in the heart?

Here is an interesting read:

https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bhf/news-arc...

"The spike protein binds to cells called pericytes which line the small vessels of the heart. This binding triggers a cascade of changes which disrupt normal cell function, and can lead to the release of chemicals that cause inflammation. This happened even when the protein was no longer attached to the virus... The spike protein can remain in the bloodstream after the virus has gone and travel far from the site of infection."

This article is talking about the spike protein aquired from infection, but I wonder if it is similar from vaccine, since the spike protein is also in the vaccine:

"First, COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are given in the upper arm muscle. The mRNA will enter the muscle cells and instruct the cells' machinery to produce a harmless piece of what is called the spike protein. The spike protein is found on the surface of the virus that causes COVID-19."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

[perrylaj]

The bhf article you linked explicitly states that there is no reason to believe that vaccine spikes behave the same way, and that getting vaccinated is the best way to avoid the spike-caused heart damage.

[jb1991]

More specifically, it said:

"This research only looked at the spike protein found on virus cells."

The impression is that, since they did not look at the spike protein from vaccines, then that is the reason there is indeed no evidence of this from vaccines, since there was no study on that. Sounds like there should be a study.

[Argonaut998]

Myocarditis has an extremely high fatality rate. Why is it considered mild when getting it via COVID/Vaccine as opposed to the usual ways?

[fabian2k]

Because myocarditis is not myocarditis. The cases observed after vaccines were mostly mild. The myocarditis after vaccines does not necessarily have the same severity as myocarditis in general, and from observations so far it looks to be milder:

> In COVID-19 mRNA-vaccine-associated myocarditis, >90% of patients will functionally completely recover, usually after a chest pain syndrome (see Supplementary information). To date, only eight deaths owing to COVID-19 mRNA-vaccine-associated myocarditis have been reported (>99% survival) (see Supplementary information).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41569-021-00662-w

> Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my...

[Argonaut998]

Thanks, that's reassuring at least

[Pyramus]

> Myocarditis has an extremely high fatality rate.

Only for severe cases. Like any inflammation it can be mild to life-threatening.

You can get myocarditis from any infection, and also allergies. Mild forms are quite common, if I remember correctly (not a doctor).

[polski-g]

The severity of heart issues decreases with age. The risk of covid death increases with age. This children should not be getting vaccinated.