[tqi]

> We, as in the IT industry, need to come up with a culture or methodology of 'declaring a product complete'

Blaming Product Managers chasing "impact" is a fashionable thing to think/say here, but I don't think thats entirely true for consumer apps, and especially not for social networks. If it were, you'd expect that the each successive generation of apps to be a return to form. However as we've seen with the migration from FB -> IG -> Snapchat -> back to IG -> TikTok, the core concept behind the "best" product is always changing. That is because "best" is not just about being feature complete, it's about what is "cool", and "cool" will aways be a moving target.

Shipping stuff that turns out to just be useless clutter absolutely happens - the problem is it is hard/impossible to know the difference going in.

[axlee]

>That is because "best" is not just about being feature complete, it's about what is "cool", and "cool" will aways be a moving target.

Exactly. Look at the fashion industry: pants are pants, shirts are shirts, and there hasn't been a major step forward since decades. Still, brands birth and die continuously, without the underlying product being any better or worse, or cheaper, than the one that comes to replace it. Products are overrated, success as a business is far more complex than ticking a feature list and delivering it to the right people.

[mattcwilson]

I think you’re making the GP’s point. No one cares about how much engagement with their pants they are getting.

They care that the whole experience delivers them what they value: fit, trendiness, status, consistency of the experience and the product, etc.

They care about innovation only when it reliability delivers an obvious gain on any of those stats, or when the market has moved to the point where keeping up with trendiness demands it.

So many brands are “premier” because they know all of this and just relentlessly deliver that familiar experience, maintaining their market position.

Software hasn’t quite, as an industry, figured out that sweet spot of innovation and consistency to be truly lasting. We’re too familiar with disruption - which is true, by and large, and sets us apart. Except once a category is defined enough not to need it. No one’s really disrupted email, despite many attempts, because it’s too ubiquitous and the consistency of experience demands are too great. It’ll happen eventually, but only as a long term evolution of overall trends and underpinning standards. Like the move away from breeches and onto pants.

[tqi]

But what is shipping seemingly random features (stories, igtv, shopping, reels, etc) if not trying to increase/maintain trendiness?

[airstrike]

> shirts are shirts, and there hasn't been a major step forward since decades.

I'm not so sure about that... https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a20962322/balenci...

[lelandfe]

Balenciaga and Vetements seem to produce around "what will make bloggers confused"

See: $4k sleeping bag coat https://modesens.com/product/vetements-black-and-green-vagab...

[klyrs]

I feel both enriched, and yet diminished, by clicking on that.

[swiftcoder]

> Shipping stuff that turns out to just be useless clutter absolutely happens - the problem is it is hard/impossible to know the difference going in.

It's not that hard. Plenty of A/B testing is done along the way, and yet useless clutter still ships. Why? Partly because it's pretty easy to goose one or two metrics at the expense of a small global regression, partly because everyone needs shipped product at the end-of-year review to justify bonusses/raises/promotions, partly because there are 100+ individual teams working on the product and they all think their feature will benefit users more than the next one... a multitude of localised decisions will necessarily gradually erode the product experience as a whole.

You see this most starkly in fairly decentralised companies like FB, Google, or Valve, less so in companies with centralised command-and-control over product experience (Apple, Amazon's device org, etc). But even centralised command-and-control can only hold this is check for so long at massive scale. Amazon's larger and less focused divisions, post-Jobs Apple... all on the slippery slope

[tqi]

> Partly because it's pretty easy to goose one or two metrics at the expense of a small global regression

That is true, but again I think it's more complicated than that. AB tests are good for measuring incremental changes, but really bad at predicting the impact of 0 to 1 type products / features, because so much of the success or failure depends on public perception and network effects. Twitter couldn't AB test "Fleets" and have any confidence as to what the product adoption would look like. So companies have no choice but to launch and see.

[mason55]

Right - if you stand still then you’re going to lose users to whatever the next cool thing is.

So you have two options. One is to keep iterating on features. Two is to increase stickiness, of which the easiest way is by locking people into a social network.