[VortexDream]

I am so incredibly tired of Germany being a legal and technical internet backwater. It's exhausting and depressing and I hate it so much. I wish the old people would fuck the hell off, because they simply don't belong in positions that represent our society in a modern world.

[hvgk]

A good friend of mine is German. She moved out of the country a couple of years back because it was crammed with backwards ideologies and Ludditism to use her own words. Her father ran a small shop which went bankrupt because he was closed at lunch times and weekends (when everyone wanted to go in there) and only took cash and this was everyone else’s fault apparently. She came here (UK) and was surprised you could actually pay pretty much anywhere with a phone for example and says we live in a technology utopia compared to there.

[josefx]

> Her father ran a small shop which went bankrupt because he was closed at lunch times and weekends

That only means that her father was crazy, I don't know a single shop that closes during lunch time. The smaller places I know intentionally shift their opening hours to explicitly open early, during lunch or during closing hours.

> and only took cash

Afaik most electronic payment providers require that you hide their transaction fees in the normal price, so a shop that doesn't offer electronic payments can be cheaper. However most places support contact less payments so that must have been some years ago.

[oreilles]

In France and probably most of western Europe too, business being closed between 12 and 2 is very much standard. Those people gotta eat too.

[f6v]

Nur Bar ist wahr! I’m in Denmark now and don’t carry any cash with me. In Germany, I could forget about getting lunch with that attitude.

[Merem]

"Nur Bares ist Wahres"...and it's true. With cash you have full control of the money while with some CC or phone you rely on third parties. Not to mention the privacy and data issues. It's always "funny" when people whine about that or how their CC got compromised, despite it being their choice.

[ChuckNorris89]

>"Nur Bares ist Wahres"...and it's true. With cash you have full control of the money

Well nobody said cash payments should be banned, but it sucks when cash is the only way to pay in some places, meaning I always have to carry a bulky wallet filled with banknotes and coins just in case the bar, restaurant, shop, cafe, deli, parking meter or whatever, does not accept digital payments.

I also used cash for buying greens since that's not yet legalized, but for everything else that's been legal for over 100 years already, please accept digital payments.

[DyslexicAtheist]

you're getting downvotes which is puzzling because a sibling thread laments the all too common overreach of law enforcement citing the "zwiebelfreunde/CCC" raid. It's perfectly consistent to be suspicious about paying by cash and also wanting to avoid leaking information to advertisers or taking care about security. Rejecting FinTech or traditional banking in a high tax country even as a law abiding citizens is not being a Luddite. It's good data hygiene for when they eventually come knocking and demand you explain yourself.

[ChuckNorris89]

>you're getting downvotes which is puzzling because a sibling thread laments the all too common overreach of law enforcement citing the "zwiebelfreunde/CCC" raid

Because just because people want CC/contactless payments to be accepted everywhere, doesn't mean they want cash to be banned, if you wish to stay anonymous.

So why should you deprive everyone of contactless payments if you wish to stay anonymous, when you can acomodate both.

My beef is a lot of places only take cash.

[the8472]

Once traceable transactions become widespread there's a push to limit cash payments - see reporting requirements for paying more than 10000€ in cash, the amount des not get inflation-adjusted, see other countries with higher percentages of cashless transactions. So the people who want to pay cashless enable a power-grab by law enforcement. Not intentionally, but through their own convenience. So while their preferences taken on their own are not harmful if you combine them with known dynamics they are in conflict with the preferences of those who want to pay cash.

And I think simple convenience (not having to carry a slightly heavier wallet) does not quite weigh (heh) the same as privacy.

So until we get the ratchet of increasing surveillance solved it is entirely reasonable to push back on cashless transactions.

[leokennis]

This feels to me a bit like saying "wheelbarrows trump cars" because you're way less likely to get into a life threatening incident while operating one.

You're highlighting one small convenience of cash and ignoring its many real disadvantages.

[hvgk]

Cash is far less secure. There’s no transaction history, it’s easy to lose, easy to damage and difficult to exchange.

People forget the only thing that is important is the exchange not the material used to do so. It’s all promises at the end of the day.

[inglor_cz]

It is more secure against remote hacking and imposition of a serious negative interest.

In a purely cashless society, the central bank could force a -10 per cent interest on all savings, thus forcing people to spend even if they don't want to.

(This was, for example, discussed on the IMF blog pages: https://blogs.imf.org/2019/02/05/cashing-in-how-to-make-nega...)

This is harder to do in economies where people can take their money out of the bank as cash. There, the lower limit for interest seems to be around -1 per cent.

[hvgk]

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of sensible economics.

Cash is a facilitating fluid which should be channeled into diverse investments which are not based on monetary value such as property and resources, not stashed in large piles. Holding any cash in any quantity is a risk. Doesn’t matter if it’s magic numbers in a computer or bits of paper in a mattress.

As for cash only society, sorry but fuck that.

[raverbashing]

> and imposition of a serious negative interest

It's called inflation and it doesn't care if your money was securely left in your mattress

[Merem]

There being no transaction history is good (less data/more privacy). Not sure how it's easy to lose. At least I have never lost my cash. And if you lose your wallet for some reason, you also lose your CCs. There is "often" fraud with CCs, with cash that rarely happens, unless it's counterfeit money. Also not sure what you would do with the money that you would damage it. Usually, it's in your wallet or somewhere stored.

Promises that the money will be worth it the next day, sure. But at least I have my cash in my hand (and some stored where I live), so access to it can't just be denied.

[BurningPenguin]

If you lose your cash, it's gone. If you lose your CC, all it takes is one call (or a few mouse clicks) to lock it and get a new one in a few days.

[raverbashing]

Exactly

Whoever thinks getting paid in cash is "free" is going to be outcompeted really quickly.

But even (some) old people seem to prefer paying with card today, so change is slow.

[DyslexicAtheist]

cash is antifragile

[hvgk]

It’s isn’t really. Look at Zimbabwe hyperinflation. I have a trillion dollar note here.

Cash is only worth what someone else agrees it is worth.

[dgellow]

That changed a lot since 2020. I regularly pay small things, like franzbrötchen, with my Apple Watch (that was not always possible before). At least in Hamburg it is now possible to use a card/contact-less payment almost everywhere.

I only use cash for public transports.

[dorgo]

Cash is untraceable. Nothing else has this feature (yet?). So I use cash wherever I can.

[silvester23]

Regarding cash payments, things have slightly improved due to covid. Many places that did not use to accept cards/phones now do but there's still a ways to go.

And then of course there are many smaller places that only accept cash payments for the same reason they only enter half of your order into their cash register.

[helloguillecl]

Oh yes it has improved a bit... If you happen to be paying paying at least 10 EUR :), otherwise you'd be bellow the mindestbetrag

[tetris11]

That's the same as the UK though. Corner shops lose money if the total purchase is less than 10 GBP

[hvgk]

They don’t because everything costs much more in them.

[carlmr]

Yes, you have to compare to lost sales, but then again people in Germany are used to carry cash, so lost sales is maybe low enough not to matter.

[Notanothertoo]

Ironic because a lot of left leaning US folk think it is a utopia.

I think the culture around employment contracts preventing people from quiting when they want, penalty free, and the letter of recommendation requirements from a previous employer are insane. Seems like you would really have to go above and beyond to not get screwed on your next job by a bitter ex employer.

Also find the gov owning large shares in the private sector (Volvo.. Ect) to be a conflict of interest and may encourage them to bypass emissions laws for example.

Just seems like a lot of institutional trust.

[xijingpooh]

France isn't a lot better in this regard. You need a permit from the Conseil Supérieur de l’Audiovisuel to operate a public open wlan. They had a three strike policy for sharing infridging content but they just gave up for some reason. Maybe they finally realised it's a waste of public servant time to go after people in the benefit of a few corporations.

[maeln]

Big copyright holders hold a lot of political power in France. That's why France has been one of the country in the E.U fighting the most against piracy and taxing pretty much everything you can store music file on (we used to buy blank CD/DVD in germany or spain because they where close to 10 time cheaper).

The three strike / hadopi bullshit was clearly a political move to satisfy the biggest copyright holder, a lot of it was completely unenforceable and even unconstitutional from the start. In the end, very few people even got to the third strike, and they couldn't even do what they "promised" (forbidding the person from having an internet connection) and had to go through costly court procedure just to give fines in the end. It was just a machine to burn public money for the miniscule benefit of a few. It died very fast because nobody wanted to try to make this bullshit actually work and burn even more money when they have to get re-elected.

[yololol]

Since when is it okay to say these things? People not up to date to do their jobs are the problem, not "old" people. Blame behaviors not groups.

PS: I moved to Germany and I want to move out asap because of how outdated everything is here.

[llampx]

Its a systemic rot. Old people in this case are definitely part of the problem, but so are the young bureaucrats who just step into their predecessor's shoes and continue working as they were in the 70's. "Bitte per Fax zukommen lassen."

[ChuckNorris89]

Curious to know what are your points of comparison when you say everything is outdated in Germany.

[yololol]

Hmmm okay, so first of all I should had said Berlin, as perhaps my experience does not necessarily reflect the situation in the whole Germany. So about Berlin: Aside from the internet paper-based communication, and general love for bureaucuracy, I found the city's infrastructure to be generally deprived. When I arrived Tegel and Schönefeld were the only airports, the state of which I frankly found shameful, especially for the capital of Europe's biggest economy. And the new Brandenburg airport that took 10 years to finish is not great either. I found the state of S-Bahn and U-Bahn pretty disappointing too, and parts of the public transport system to be constantly broken. Also the general customer service is very bad, a lot of places don't even accept credit cards, and overall people seem to be reluctant to adopt new technologies. I have the feeling that Berlin is stuck in it's golden age, and doesn't want to move forward. As for the point of reference, I moved from Hong Kong (not my native country), which I consider to be very modern in these aspects, so the whole experience was like a time-travel back to the 90s :)

[brnt]

I recently went to work in Germany (not Berlin). It surprised me how conservative the country is, in many ways, not just the use of tech. Its lack of tech is a reflection of that attitude is my impression. Unfortunately the pandemic has made it difficult to get to know people personally and study this in a bit more detail.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

And the younger ones are better? I think this has nothing to do with age per se, more of mind, character, experience. Or class. Or how compromised and corrupt they are. I mean, look at Spahn. Or Dorothee Bär.

Or lets not concentrate on persons, but on concepts instead. What makes anyone competent to be at the top of any branch, resort, ministry? Their staff? Then why not appoint someone from the staff to that position?

It's all non-sense now, a tragicomedy at best. Regardless of party and age.