[hvgk]

A good friend of mine is German. She moved out of the country a couple of years back because it was crammed with backwards ideologies and Ludditism to use her own words. Her father ran a small shop which went bankrupt because he was closed at lunch times and weekends (when everyone wanted to go in there) and only took cash and this was everyone else’s fault apparently. She came here (UK) and was surprised you could actually pay pretty much anywhere with a phone for example and says we live in a technology utopia compared to there.

[josefx]

> Her father ran a small shop which went bankrupt because he was closed at lunch times and weekends

That only means that her father was crazy, I don't know a single shop that closes during lunch time. The smaller places I know intentionally shift their opening hours to explicitly open early, during lunch or during closing hours.

> and only took cash

Afaik most electronic payment providers require that you hide their transaction fees in the normal price, so a shop that doesn't offer electronic payments can be cheaper. However most places support contact less payments so that must have been some years ago.

[oreilles]

In France and probably most of western Europe too, business being closed between 12 and 2 is very much standard. Those people gotta eat too.

[f6v]

Nur Bar ist wahr! I’m in Denmark now and don’t carry any cash with me. In Germany, I could forget about getting lunch with that attitude.

[Merem]

"Nur Bares ist Wahres"...and it's true. With cash you have full control of the money while with some CC or phone you rely on third parties. Not to mention the privacy and data issues. It's always "funny" when people whine about that or how their CC got compromised, despite it being their choice.

[ChuckNorris89]

>"Nur Bares ist Wahres"...and it's true. With cash you have full control of the money

Well nobody said cash payments should be banned, but it sucks when cash is the only way to pay in some places, meaning I always have to carry a bulky wallet filled with banknotes and coins just in case the bar, restaurant, shop, cafe, deli, parking meter or whatever, does not accept digital payments.

I also used cash for buying greens since that's not yet legalized, but for everything else that's been legal for over 100 years already, please accept digital payments.

[DyslexicAtheist]

you're getting downvotes which is puzzling because a sibling thread laments the all too common overreach of law enforcement citing the "zwiebelfreunde/CCC" raid. It's perfectly consistent to be suspicious about paying by cash and also wanting to avoid leaking information to advertisers or taking care about security. Rejecting FinTech or traditional banking in a high tax country even as a law abiding citizens is not being a Luddite. It's good data hygiene for when they eventually come knocking and demand you explain yourself.

[ChuckNorris89]

>you're getting downvotes which is puzzling because a sibling thread laments the all too common overreach of law enforcement citing the "zwiebelfreunde/CCC" raid

Because just because people want CC/contactless payments to be accepted everywhere, doesn't mean they want cash to be banned, if you wish to stay anonymous.

So why should you deprive everyone of contactless payments if you wish to stay anonymous, when you can acomodate both.

My beef is a lot of places only take cash.

[the8472]

Once traceable transactions become widespread there's a push to limit cash payments - see reporting requirements for paying more than 10000€ in cash, the amount des not get inflation-adjusted, see other countries with higher percentages of cashless transactions. So the people who want to pay cashless enable a power-grab by law enforcement. Not intentionally, but through their own convenience. So while their preferences taken on their own are not harmful if you combine them with known dynamics they are in conflict with the preferences of those who want to pay cash.

And I think simple convenience (not having to carry a slightly heavier wallet) does not quite weigh (heh) the same as privacy.

So until we get the ratchet of increasing surveillance solved it is entirely reasonable to push back on cashless transactions.

[ChuckNorris89]

>see reporting requirements for paying more than 10000€ in cash

Why is that a problem? The bank is doing the reporting, not you and it's not like the government is stopping you from transferring over 10000€, electronically or in cash. You are free to do that. I transferred over 50k without any issues. And you can still use cash to buy weed if anonymity is what you wish, or use cash to pay some handyman to fix stuff around your house or piano lessons for your kids, without paying taxes.

The issue is with large cash sums, as believe it or not, money laundering and tax fraud is a real thing, and large cash transactions make this a breeze.

So, knowing how much tax money the taxpayers are loosing every year thanks to cash driven tax fraud, I'm all in favor of more scrutiny on large cash transactions and moving to more transparent wire transitions.

[leokennis]

This feels to me a bit like saying "wheelbarrows trump cars" because you're way less likely to get into a life threatening incident while operating one.

You're highlighting one small convenience of cash and ignoring its many real disadvantages.

[hvgk]

Cash is far less secure. There’s no transaction history, it’s easy to lose, easy to damage and difficult to exchange.

People forget the only thing that is important is the exchange not the material used to do so. It’s all promises at the end of the day.

[inglor_cz]

It is more secure against remote hacking and imposition of a serious negative interest.

In a purely cashless society, the central bank could force a -10 per cent interest on all savings, thus forcing people to spend even if they don't want to.

(This was, for example, discussed on the IMF blog pages: https://blogs.imf.org/2019/02/05/cashing-in-how-to-make-nega...)

This is harder to do in economies where people can take their money out of the bank as cash. There, the lower limit for interest seems to be around -1 per cent.

[hvgk]

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of sensible economics.

Cash is a facilitating fluid which should be channeled into diverse investments which are not based on monetary value such as property and resources, not stashed in large piles. Holding any cash in any quantity is a risk. Doesn’t matter if it’s magic numbers in a computer or bits of paper in a mattress.

As for cash only society, sorry but fuck that.

[inglor_cz]

"Holding any cash in any quantity is a risk."

As usual, some people want to undergo this risk in order to balance out other risks. For example, your bank account can be frozen under a variety of scenarios, even unjustly so. In such situation, it is better to have emergency cash at hand.

Diverse investments are good, but some liquidity is good as well. If you e.g. need to escape a starting civil war, things that can be carried on a person and have near universal acceptance are more valuable than a roll of blue chip stocks or a nice house that you cannot take with you. I have met people who escaped the siege of Sarajevo; cash and gold went a long way helping them out.

"As for cash only society, sorry but fuck that. "

That isn't something I proposed.

[raverbashing]

> and imposition of a serious negative interest

It's called inflation and it doesn't care if your money was securely left in your mattress

[inglor_cz]

I am a bit influenced by the situation in Europe.

Countries like Italy cannot inflate their way out of debt anymore. ECB, at least officially, is trying to keep inflation low. But negative interest rates would help the heavily indebted countries to ease their debt service burden.

(If such constellation of parameters is sustainable, IDK, but that debt isn't going anywhere.)

[Merem]

There being no transaction history is good (less data/more privacy). Not sure how it's easy to lose. At least I have never lost my cash. And if you lose your wallet for some reason, you also lose your CCs. There is "often" fraud with CCs, with cash that rarely happens, unless it's counterfeit money. Also not sure what you would do with the money that you would damage it. Usually, it's in your wallet or somewhere stored.

Promises that the money will be worth it the next day, sure. But at least I have my cash in my hand (and some stored where I live), so access to it can't just be denied.

[BurningPenguin]

If you lose your cash, it's gone. If you lose your CC, all it takes is one call (or a few mouse clicks) to lock it and get a new one in a few days.

[Merem]

Depends on where you lose it. If it's in/at some place where you can buy something, people usually bring it there and you can get it back as soon as you notice. If it's the whole wallet, it's even easier (would be true for CCs then as well). But yeah, if you don't get it back, then it's gone. But to be honest, if I lose like 100-150€ once in 80 years because of that, then I can take it. I never have more than that in my wallet, unless I intend to buy something. (And that's also another benefit. Cash prevents against impulse buying and you spend your money better (you visually see how it's shrinking etc)).

[raverbashing]

Exactly

Whoever thinks getting paid in cash is "free" is going to be outcompeted really quickly.

But even (some) old people seem to prefer paying with card today, so change is slow.

[DyslexicAtheist]

cash is antifragile

[hvgk]

It’s isn’t really. Look at Zimbabwe hyperinflation. I have a trillion dollar note here.

Cash is only worth what someone else agrees it is worth.

[DyslexicAtheist]

antifragile doesn't mean no shocks no sacrifices. it's regular shocks and sacrifices to reduce chances of black swan events. Zimbawe is a (predictable) white swan event not a black swan.

[midasuni]

You can burn cash for heating

[dgellow]

That changed a lot since 2020. I regularly pay small things, like franzbrötchen, with my Apple Watch (that was not always possible before). At least in Hamburg it is now possible to use a card/contact-less payment almost everywhere.

I only use cash for public transports.

[dorgo]

Cash is untraceable. Nothing else has this feature (yet?). So I use cash wherever I can.

[silvester23]

Regarding cash payments, things have slightly improved due to covid. Many places that did not use to accept cards/phones now do but there's still a ways to go.

And then of course there are many smaller places that only accept cash payments for the same reason they only enter half of your order into their cash register.

[helloguillecl]

Oh yes it has improved a bit... If you happen to be paying paying at least 10 EUR :), otherwise you'd be bellow the mindestbetrag

[tetris11]

That's the same as the UK though. Corner shops lose money if the total purchase is less than 10 GBP

[hvgk]

They don’t because everything costs much more in them.

[carlmr]

Yes, you have to compare to lost sales, but then again people in Germany are used to carry cash, so lost sales is maybe low enough not to matter.

[Notanothertoo]

Ironic because a lot of left leaning US folk think it is a utopia.

I think the culture around employment contracts preventing people from quiting when they want, penalty free, and the letter of recommendation requirements from a previous employer are insane. Seems like you would really have to go above and beyond to not get screwed on your next job by a bitter ex employer.

Also find the gov owning large shares in the private sector (Volvo.. Ect) to be a conflict of interest and may encourage them to bypass emissions laws for example.

Just seems like a lot of institutional trust.