[ajdoingnothing]

This is really interesting. I remember that the GTA 5 build log file was leaked back in the day. It contained a lot of interesting information too (e.g., something along the lines of an "auto play bot" which failed at a certain mission). I'm looking forward to some summary of this soon in a blog/Youtube video :-). That being said, it's a shame T2/R* is taking down/suing mods for this type of bad port. Despite being way ahead of any other game company in terms of R&D and innovation, they sadly decided to outsource these "definitive"versions and pay little attention to QA. In any case, imho, the best way to play any of these original games is on a PS2 (probably even with a CRT TV) as that is the way the original developers really built it for.

[ChuckNorris89]

>In any case, imho, the best way to play any of these original games is on a PS2

This is why I'm still a PC user. Whenever nostalgia hits and I want to play some old games, I don't need to keep around or source some vintage console hardware and games on the 2nd hand market or rely on some low quality ports that were most likely outsourced with poor QA, but I can just get away with installing the original game build off Steam/GOG or from two decades old cracked .iso files, and it will most likely work as Microsoft has done an amazing job with Windows backwards compatibility. And even when it doesn't work out of the box, there are enough resources out there from the community, with tweaks and patches, on how to get it running on a modern OS like Win 10 or even on Linux.

[emodendroket]

Well, assuming the PC version isn't a half-hearted console port...

[eliasmacpherson]

Is there a mature discussion on the history of 'consolization' anywhere online, first examples I am aware of are 2003: Deus-ex Invisible War and 2004: Thief - Deadly Shadows, where the PC port is deliberately gimped due to being developed for console. GTA VC/San Andreas were worth at least waiting for at the time, due to proper mouse support and higher resolution.

Previously the Doom/Quake version that was on console would be months/years late and cut down, but these 2003/2004 titles reversed the trend. There are probably earlier examples that I am unaware of.

Between this effect, subscription MMORPGs and the inevitability of microtransactions I lost interest around that time.

[maccard]

I have worked on console games since the 360/PS3 era, (which was 10 years ago, so my info is probably a little rusty)

> the PC port is deliberately gimped due to being developed for console.

If you want to have a mature discussion on the topic don't start out with this attitude. Timelines are finite, and plans change. Remember that the games you're talking about existed before licensing ue4/unity was the default option for AAA games. The games were likely only ever planned to exist on console and the request for PC cones in way later, however at that time the game just barely runs on PC (it doesn't need to be performant or representative, just play), and relies on an engine architecture based on having cell SPEs or an (almost) unified memory architecture.

The game is likely unplayable for anything other than "test you can do X and Y" on PC, and all development of the look and feel is done on the console itself. Naturally as consoles have moved towards x86 these differences have been reduced, and now it's common to develop the game on PC and test occasionally on console.

The differences do still exist though; PS5 having hardware decompression, dualsense controllers, both consoles having raytracung hardware and super fast SSDs as a guarantee.

> Between this effect, subscription MMORPGs and the inevitability of microtransactions I lost interest around that time.

You've missed 2 decades of excellent games that don't suffer from this, don't have subscritions and don't have microtransaction by doing that!

[eliasmacpherson]

I was actually hoping to avoid starting a debate here and hoping to find a broadly scoped long form discussion written by a journalist.

Please do not take my opinion as a personal affront to your career, and I sympathise with the difficulties in the industry.

Don't worry about my missing out, I had plenty of other things to do during that time. I have since regained a temporary interest and caught up on the offline single player PC games of interest to me over the course of lockdown restrictions, but console games are not for me. Invisible-War stands out as an abomination, prompting my comment.

The Ion storm games I mention ran poorly on an unreal 2 engine compared to their predecessors and the GTA ones were developed in parallel, there was no change of plan, it's a statement of fact in those cases rather than an attitude.

[int_19h]

The reason why PC gamers have this attitude is very clear from OP's comment: it used to be that PC was the primary platform, and thus e.g. keyboard/mouse controls would be designed properly at least. When that changed to worse, it was glaringly obvious.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Is there a mature discussion on the history of 'consolization' anywhere online

The console market is huge as not everyone is tech savvy enough to maintain a gaming PC and bother with all the OS updates, driver updates, patches, HW upgrades and such. Lots of people just want to hop on the couch after school/work, pick up the controller and start playing.

And since the console market is so big, it made financial sense for the game studios to use them as the lowest common denominator during development. More sales on more platforms = more $$$, despite the PC ports ending up sub-par.

The dark ages ware during the PS3 and Xbox 360 days since those consoles used custom CPU/GPU architectures, radically different than PCs, which coupled with the low quality of the SW tooling and SDKs of the era made cross-platform game development a nightmare at the time so more often than not games made for both console and PCs turned out janky AF.

But thankfully, since the last couple of console generations are basically x64 AMD APU powered PCs, and SW tooling is way simpler and more efficient and of higher quality so game devs can scale their engines and visuals much easier between console and PC reducing the quality discriminations.

However, I have noticed that console gaming experience has gotten a lot more janky in the last few generations as their HW and SW have reached PC levels of complexity, with long waiting times, errors and crashes being more common than in the days of ROM cartridges. The new and powerful SSD-only, generation of consoles seem to reverse that trend though and bring back a snappy and more responsive UX.

Although I gave up on modern gaming for the most part, especially the over-hyped AAA titles, the progress on the tech side pleases me (baring the chip shortage scalpocalypse we live in)

[Lev1a]

> first examples I am aware of are 2003: Deus-ex Invisible War and 2004: Thief - Deadly Shadows, where the PC port is deliberately gimped due to being developed for console

IIRC the first "Watch Dogs" game had deliberately downgraded graphics on PC compared to the previews and it was later found that changing a value in some config file would not only return the better looks but also lead to a boost in performance.

[MomoXenosaga]

Consoles today are more powerful than the average PC. I didn't believe it until I saw the steam hardware survey.

Consoles and PC have influenced eachother- how many PC gamers today use controllers? The distinction has blurred somewhere in the 2010s.

[Bobylonian]

I am probably PC gamer and I do not use controller and do not plan to do. Aiming with mouse vs aiming with controller will always differ - tbf, even when shooter games(Doom and Duke Nukem 3D, even Descent) used keyboard for aiming that had a lot more options than modern controllers, which I personally think is a big step down from PC joystics. What you are mostly seeing are console players, who are playing games on PC and they might use controller - some of the platform games(that are also available on PC) might benefit use of controllers instead of keyboards, but then again - PC gamers have reached virtuoso level with using keyboards, so pleas stap this nonsense of inciting PC vs consoles hatred. Clearly, consoles have bigger income from gaming than PC, but then again - mobile games dwarf all of these combined, but that is not really an argument about what is better, but where is bigger income.

[MomoXenosaga]

I only see the hatred from one camp my friend. The irony is lost on you.

I switched to PC. I play what once would be exclusive console games with a dualshock on a TV. Consoles and PC have converged.

[emodendroket]

His point isn't about the superiority of one method or another; it's that PC games all support controllers and many players choose to use them to play. Microsoft made a pretty hard push for that with the Xbox 360/One controllers.

[Talanes]

The hardware survey is going to catch machines that aren't even attempting to be in the same class as consoles though.

Combine that with the availability issues that plagued the current-gen console launch, and the actual comparison of PCs used as gaming machine and consoles in people's houses is much closer.

[Hamuko]

Average PC or average Steam PC? Because I can't imagine anything but the average Steam PC being a lot better than the average PC people have in their house.

[emodendroket]

The Steam hardware survey shows what hardware people are using to play games on Steam and it is surprisingly modest for the most part.

[emodendroket]

I think just as much as that budgets are a big driver. If a game costs a bazillion dollars to make, and making it cross-platform is relatively straightforward, making it an exclusive doesn't make a lot of sense unless the platform holder is handing you a bag of money.

[astrange]

PS2 emulation works pretty well these days.

[ChuckNorris89]

Sure, but why would you emulate something that already has a native build for PC?

[aufhebung]

I think the PC build lacks some visual effects that are present on the PS2 version.

[sergiotapia]

pc versions of gta have had iconic music removed in updates and as of a few days ago you can't even purchase them anymore.

emulate and enjoy the games at 4k upscaled running at 60fps with everything the original had. it's the best way to enjoy these older titles.

even shadow of the colossus for ps2 upscaled is better than the ps4 remaster - the "tone" has changed in the remaster. check out some youtube videos.

[skhr0680]

You need 5+ mods to the PC version of San Andreas before it looks and feels “right”. Look up SkyGFX for an example

[nextaccountic]

Emulation often has an easier setup: no need to install, for instance. If on Windows, no trouble with incompatibilities with old versions of Windows; if on Linux, no trouble with Wine setup and winetricks. Also, no worries with malware.

Emulators also comes with "save states" (RAM dumps that save/restore at any point of time) and other features. It's really more convenient.

[beebmam]

Many games for older versions of Windows will not on modern versions of Windows without emulators, like DOSbox

[asddubs]

because the playstation 2 API is even more stable than the windows API, and it's neatly sandboxed

[tata71]

...how does that help you follow the damn train, CJ?

[ChuckNorris89]

You left Big Smoke behind, go get him!

[KennyBlanken]

Nobody should be surprised Rockstar went as cheap as possible and suckered everyone.

Rockstar is infamous for milking GTA 5 while not spending a dime on doing anything about harassment/trolling/hackers.

I stopped playing GTA 5 after some rando found me in one of the more isolated parts of the map and just decided to kill me over and over and over again. There was nothing I could do to get away from him; I'd respawn close enough to him, and nowhere near a vehicle, so I couldn't escape.

They could easily grant temporary immunity or kick players who kill another player more than once in, say, half an hour....and instantly end the problem of harassment and trolling in-game.

[k4rli]

What do you mean no way to avoid this? Just use passive mode for a while to get away.

[FridayoLeary]

Don't forget that thing about the 20 minute loading times on multiplayer.

[_fat_santa]

Passive Mode + You can just jump into another server. Heck on PC I know there were ways you can modify your network settings to ensure you're always dropped in an empty room. Great for CEO work.

[cbozeman]

What you're describing is part of the game.

It's like people being pissed off about PKers in Ultima Online 20-something years ago. It's literally what you signed up for. It's part of the world.

[int_19h]

The problem isn't player killing here, it's that you get repeatedly killed by the same person immediately when you respawn. That's just broken game design.

[_fat_santa]

> Despite being way ahead of any other game company in terms of R&D and innovation, they sadly decided to outsource these "definitive"versions and pay little attention to QA.

One thing I really wonder if what codebase they worked off of. Seems like they worked off the mobile port codebase a few years ago, I've seen a few people mention that many of the bugs they saw in the Definitive Edition was also present in the mobile ports.

To it seems like their big mistake wasn't necessarily the fact they outsourced everything, is they started in the wrong place.

Codebase evolution seems to be: Original -> Mobile Port(s) -> Definitive Edition.

They should have scrapped any changes made in the mobile ports and worked straight off the original versions.