Ask HN: Is my job search situation doomed? I'm losing hope and getting desperate

[666b20753a29]

I'm a 20 y/o bootcamp grad with no college degree and 6 months of professional experience. I've been out of employment since May this year, and since mid-September I've been applying for entry-level software engineering positions across the US. Also I'm from Europe and I'm currently l̶i̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶ touring SF on a tourist visa, meaning I would need sponsorship for an H-1b work visa.

Let's assume for a moment that I'm job searching correctly; I'm applying to places that I would actually want to work at with a relevant resume and a well-written cover letter, I'm networking on Linkedin and setting up phone calls with engineers and recruiters, I'm leveraging my existing network and getting referrals to almost everyone I know, etc.

So far I've had ~zero responses. After getting speedily rejected from FB, even with a relatively strong recommendation, I managed to get feedback from the engineer that it's basically because companies aren't willing to sponsor for entry-level positions, especially if the candidate doesn't have a degree. Is this true? Is there a limiting factor of my situation here? Why am I being ignored?

My resolve is starting to break because I have zero visibility on _what_ exactly is going wrong. If it's something about my situation that doubles the bar, then that's fine– I'll go work in Europe for a few years, and I'll be back in the US soon. No hard feelings. But because I know that I'm more than competent enough to hold down the positions I'm applying for, I wonder if it's something about my situation or something that I'm doing wrong.

What are the conditions that companies offer sponsorship on? Is there a hard limit on the # of times a company can sponsor? Am I not being taken seriously because I'm too young? Or because my only experience was a 6 months? Is my job gap a problem?

Regardless of these questions though, my single biggest fear is that I'm wasting my time. I don't care about comp or prestige, I just want to work and build things. But I've had to instead spend the last few months writing fucking cover letters, using all the businessy buzzwords. It's so cringe and debilitating to me.

Am I doomed? Or am I being too fragile? Should I keep calm and carry on? I can do that, but I have a vauge sense of angst that I could be wasting my time without knowing it.

What do?

[gregjor]

Looking for a job in the US while visiting on a tourist visa is legally questionable. You're not only asking prospective employers to sponsor you for a limited number of visas that can get complicated and expensive for them to obtain, but you will probably have to leave the US while waiting to get that visa, and maybe explain to USCIS why you were job hunting while in the US on a tourist visa. At the very least you're competing for one of the limited number of H1-B (or other visas that allow working in the US) with a large number of more qualified/experienced candidates.

Sending in resumes and cover letters is not the correct way to search for a job, though it's the most common approach. With no degree and only six months of experience you are entry-level at best. Right now the demand in the US tech industry is for senior-level people. There's no shortage of entry-level US citizens/green card holders looking for first jobs.

You're not doomed, but you should realistically assess where you are in your career (the very beginning) and how that looks to companies desperate for more senior people. Add to that the complications of not having the right to work in the US and you can start to understand why your applications get ignored. The US has limits on H1-B visas, with exceptions for people who have advanced degrees or specialized skills. I can't imagine a company going to the trouble sponsoring a visa for an entry-level candidate. I know at places I've worked candidates who didn't have US work permits were ignored -- it's simply too much trouble to sponsor a visa and not worth it for entry-level/junior positions.

I'm trying to give you helpful advice but I realize I'm painting a bleak picture. Large companies like Facebook don't have a problem attracting candidates and they can sponsor visas for more experienced people (or people with degrees). Smaller and less sexy (not tech-oriented) companies do have trouble attracting candidates, but they are likely unfamiliar with and skittish about hiring a foreigner. Companies used to post "US citizens/permanent residents only" in their job ads but that seems less common now -- perhaps the employers (or recruiters) worry about lawsuits for "exclusionary" hiring practices, or they don't want to take the chance of missing a truly great candidate they might sponsor.

[gregjor]

As a US citizen I haven't needed to get a visa to work in the US, but I did try getting jobs in Europe (UK pre-Brexit, Denmark, Sweden, France) while traveling on a tourist visa. I had almost ten years experience at that time, but was told several times that I was not allowed to even interview for jobs while on a tourist visa, and would have to apply from the US (which I eventually did, and then got a job in England, after two months of fast-tracked work permit paperwork my employer paid for).

I spent six years as a so-called "digital nomad," working for US companies remotely while living overseas. That's also legally questionable but harder for governments to enforce. I suggest you either go back to your home country and apply for US jobs from there (so there's no question about you violating your tourist visa and implicating a prospective employer), or freelancing remotely for US companies for a while, which doesn't require a work permit/visa.

[666b20753a29]

To address the legality of what I'm doing– yes, it's dubious.

Your experience is insighful. Thanks for sharing!

[gregjor]

I think it depends. When you entered the US you got asked the reason for your visit, and you probably said "tourist." If you had said "I'm going to look for and apply for jobs" (or "find someone to marry") you would almost certainly have got turned away. But if you come to the US (or pretty much any country) as a tourist and find a job by accident (or fall in love and get married) there's nothing illegal about that. It comes down to your intent, which is hard to prove.

When you apply for a job while in the US but you don't have a visa that allows work or business, you put the potential employer in a bad position. If they follow up and interview you and proceed with hiring you, they may be party to immigration fraud (more likely they will worry about that, I think actual legal action unlikely). And they will have other legitimate concerns: they will get started on the complex and expensive visa sponsorship process only to have you fail to get the visa (if USCIS asks questions about when you applied for the job), or that you will apply for other jobs because you mainly want the visa, or if you will work for them just long enough to get a visa. Most US companies don't have a lot of experience hiring foreigners so they might not want to take any chances. The companies that do hire a lot of foreigners can pick and choose from a large pool of candidates who want to work in the US.

[apohn]

I may come off as an a-hole, but are you trolling in this thread? In all your time applying for jobs, did you really not take 30 seconds to google "Is a degree required for H1-B" or "H1-B visa requirements."

A 4 year bachelors degree or equivalent is required. Exceptions are made for people with a lot of experience or if you are an extraordinary person (e.g. You have no degree, but you are Euler).

If you google, The basics of the H1-B process is well discussed and explained by lawyers on multiple websites. Since there are a lot of immigrants who have gone through the H1-B process, there are a lot of forums where lots of nuances have been discussed by people on all types of visas, people applying for green cards, etc.

[666b20753a29]

You're crass, but not an asshole. And no, I'm not trolling. Like I've explained throughout the replies, it appears as though I've been grossly misinformed.

You're right; I did way too little research, but again, I was told by recruiters working for the bootcamp not to worry about visas, and that the visa requirements were 'malleable enough', to the point where the degree requirement for H1-B's could be exchanged with literally 0 years of experience. (At the time of graduation)

I was even told of someone a few cohorts before me that was in a similar position. They took the bootcamp after high school, graduated at 18, then got hired at Google soon after. I don't believe this happened anymore, and again, I think this was told to me due to the bootcamp's incentives being where they were. I do feel slightly cheated, but I undestand that I'm responsible for my own due diligence.

[apohn]

I'm sorry the recruiters lied to you. The H1-B and Green Card process is terrible enough without people BSing you about the reality of getting the visa in the first place.

[666b20753a29]

Yes, I've been reading about people's experiences with visas all afternoon now, it does indeed seem quite different from what I've known.

To be honest though, I kind of wanted to believe. Breifly reading the visa requirements and being told the direct contrary was definitely concerning but I think I just put faith in the possibility of being an exception. Still possible, but now I know the likelihood. <1%.

[muzani]

I think there was an experimental phase where people hired anyone regardless of qualifications, as long as they passed the interviews. Perhaps this was done in the spirit of TDD.

So in the same spirit, bootcamps would optimize just to pass those interviews. Bootcamp people certainly got some awesome jobs, then everyone realized they weren't cut out for the job.

At college, I was given the code for an operating system and asked to implement multithreading and a file system into it. There was little advice, you just had to learn to hack large codebases to pass. This kind of thing doesn't make it into interviews and thus, doesn't make it into bootcamps, but it's a vital work skill.

[apohn]

There's no way a Bootcamp grad with no degree and no experience got an H1-B visa. Companies have no flexibility with the legal requirements for visa. Even if a company said they would hire every single person from a bootcamp, they can't get around the legal visa requirements.

The recruiters did was sales people do - spoke confidently about something with zero knowledge of the situation. Or they lied. Most people have zero knowledge of the visa process, so most likely they just BSed the OP.

[gregjor]

If bootcamp recruiters told you that you could spend six months in their program and not only get a FAANG job but a work permit/visa they lied. The US visa requirements are not malleable for bootcamp grads with no significant experience. If someone told you they went from high school to boot camp to Google I would check into that, sounds more like a shill from the boot camp.

I hope you learned some useful programming skills and met some people you can keep in touch with at the bootcamp. Those places are getting a reputation as scams, and several of them have been caught flat out lying to applicants and students, padding their placement numbers, and making promises they can't possibly keep.

[Jugurtha]

I think OP's Ask HN here is better than Googling around. What better place than HN to get relevant, up to date information about working in the technology sector?

Furthermore, sometimes the question to ask or the place to look for information is obvious to the people who have the answers, but people in problematic situations sometimes don't even know the very question to ask, or where to look for. They naturally turn to friends or, in this situation, to people they trust and respect.

People here ask about what laptop to buy or how to get children inteterested in things, or how to cope with grief and sorrow; why on earth wouldn't they ask about how to get a job?

The point is: people here being vulnerable and candid asking seemingly trivial questions says more about the respect, estime, and trust they have in this community than it says about them trolling. Anyone who reads these questions is in a position of privilege.

[engineerDave]

Not trolling. Since others have handled the H1-B visa stuff, I'll just say your first sentence tells you the exact problem.

> I'm a 20 y/o bootcamp grad with no college degree and 6 months of professional experience

Six months experience out of a bootcamp isn't even enough experience to know what you don't know. I don't care what they told you in the bootcamp. IMO it's one of the main problems with bootcamp programs, they're a sort of ponzi scheme for becoming a programmer. It's like learning to swing a hammer and calling yourself a carpenter.

In SF, you'll be going up against BS in Comp Sci grads at minimum, that are probably from an Ivy League or "Public Ivy" type of school, who most likely also have a solid internship and references under their belt and were actively recruited by the FAANG company.

I think your expectations are a bit too lofty. You're gunning for FAANG and you simply don't have the qualifications. That's the harsh reality.

The good news is there are plenty of places around the world that need competent programmers. You should probably return to your home country and target a smaller company somewhere in the EU, that will give you the experience that sets a solid foundation. While you're doing that you'll need to build your online presence, e.g. open source code contributions, open source code repos, blog posts on seemly simple subjects where you pull the subject apart and lay it open for the reader. Basically you need to establish yourself so that when people search for your credentials, they exist and demonstrate clearly what you're capable of doing.

We've all been there. While it can be frustrating, it's not so much different than anything else in life. Hopefully you love to program and will find a joy in your growth as you learn new concepts and ways of applying the languages you utilize.

Best of luck!

[666b20753a29]

I do have a relatively prolific online prescence, with some blog posts that do precisely that; they're quite fun to write! Contributing to open source is also a great idea.

I don't feel frustrated, I feel relieved, actually. My vague sense of idealism is no more. I'm amazed that I opened this thread and received so much valuable and candid advice. I can now refocus and move forward. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[muzani]

As the others have said, it's very difficult to get a H1B, even as a senior. You'd probably have better luck getting a founder visa. No college degree makes it hard to even qualify for a visa; it's literally one of the things they look at.

I've applied to American jobs. I'm told my resume is solid but the conversation stops immediately once I tell them I don't have a work permit there. The only exception were dodgy seed stage companies who had like 9 months runway and no applicants, but even they decided not to go through with it.

[908B64B197]

> it's very difficult to get a H1B, even as a senior

I'd say it's the opposite.

The last administration started sending more and more RFE which weeded out a lot of fraudulent applications, especially from body-shop operations. Now there's a lot more room in the pool for real "specialty occupations".

[666b20753a29]

I have the same experience. As soon as I'm asked whether I'll need sponsorship, it's done. Thank you for sharing.

[rossdavidh]

1) I have never had to get an H1B, so take anything I say with a grain of salt

2) sponsorship is more of a commitment (in time at least) than hiring someone without sponsorship, so you might need more than 6 months' professional experience to convince someone to do that

3) remote work might be a lot easier to get now, if you are willing to go back to Europe for a while, and if you've been doing remote work for a given employer then in a year's time they might be a lot more interested in sponsoring an H1B because they will know you're worth it based on having worked with you remotely

[relaunched]

Your best bet is to find an entry level spot in a company like wipro, tcs, accenture, tech mahindra or someone like that. They are big enough that they'll not be totally put off by the visa for a jr person AND they'll take a fresher / jr dev, so long as they can bill that person on-shore rates. Typically, those folks work at f500 companies, so you'll get good experience until you can figure out your next move.

Otherwise, FAANG and the like, have a very high bar. Unless you stand out, why hire you, when they can hire the kid out of MIT, CMU, UCB, Stanford, etc? Unless you've spent the last 6 months doing something awesome (building side projects that are taking off, making meaningful contributions to the linux kernel, etc.) it's going to have to be hard to differentiate yourself.

The only other path I can think of, is find a startup that has money, but is desperate for talent. However, if they'll take you, there is a high likelihood they aren't familiar with immigration, so be very careful.

[DrNuke]

> I'm from Europe and I'm currently living in SF on a tourist visa.

> since mid-September I've been applying for software engineering positions across the US.

> Let's assume for a moment that I'm job searching correctly.

You are not indeed. This is a showstopper, even before having a look at your resume to try and figure a fit.

[666b20753a29]

Can you elaborate? I do have _some_ competitive advantage from being a tourist here.

Primarily, I thought more companies would return to in person interviews after everyone got vaccinated. This was mostly wrong. A US mobile #, being in the same TZ, networking irl, have all helped marginally however.

[apohn]

>I do have _some_ competitive advantage from being a tourist here.

You are actually at a disadvantage being in the US.

The H1-B visa process has a very frustrating quirk. Most years, companies apply for H1-Bs in March/April. But the person cannot start working till October. That means there is basically a 5-6 month gap between the H1-B approval and you starting the job. Many years, the quota of H1-B is exhausted quickly and visas ends up being a lottery - so even people who apply for visa lose the lottery and get rejected.

The exception to the above typically happens in a recession, when companies aren't hiring. Then the visas are available the whole year because the quota is not used up, but the jobs are not there.

Most companies don't want to sponsor somebody who cannot start working for 6 months. This ends up favoring people who can already work in the US (e.g. recent BS,MS,PhD graduates with EADs), or people who can work for the company who are outside the US and then come to the US later.

If you were in Europe, a multi-national company could hire you and have you working immediately. Then they could go through the H1-B process while you are working for them whole time until the visa is approved and October comes along.

[DrNuke]

Mind, you do not have any competitive advantage from applying for jobs in the US while staying on a tourist visa. On the contrary, that might expose you to way far more trouble than your enthusiasm and willpower deserve. Why not sending applications from Europe to European subsidiaries of US firms, get hired in Europe, then climb the ladder and get moved to the US? That’s how it works, for many people. EDIT: @gregjor comments above put the matter in the perspective and pretty eloquently.

[666b20753a29]

The idea of climbing a corporate ladder doesn't jump out at me personally, but this is definitly something to consider.

My ideal company size is like 2-10 employees. I thought I could just waltz into SV, join a cool early-stage startup, etc etc. Lol. Startups seems even less likely to sponsor than large companies, as they don't have the capital to spare on a bureaucractic process like that. And European tech hubs just don't have the same culture unfortunately. By the time I'm eligible to simply pick and choose startups to join in SV, I'll (hopefully) have too much responsibility to risk like that.

Thanks for the advice anyhow.

[arp242]

"Climbing a corporate ladder" is not how I would phrase it; instead I'd say something like "proven record of getting stuff done".

Sponsoring a visa is a lot of work and a fairly large upfront investment for an employee. Making that kind of investment on a 20-year old bootcamp graduate is rather risky. It might pay off, it might not pay off. Better pick someone who has at least a few years experience and has demonstrated basic ability in an actual work setting.

You'd have to be very very lucky to get a job in the US on a sponsorship with your current CV. Same for any country really.

[666b20753a29]

I've always thought that because it's not a big monetary investment relative to the TC they're paying, it's more about the lack of legal capital a company has (esp with the startups I targeted), the hard # limits on H1-B's, the time investment, and all the bureaucracy.

But yes, this makes total sense and it's easy to see why filling entry-level positions with local talent is far more rational.

[908B64B197]

> from living here

I don't think you are living here, I think you are just visiting.

And actually, now that I think about it, I'd be skeptical re-admitting you in the country after having spent several months in one of the most expensive cities in the world with no (legal) sources of income available on your current visa.

[jimmaswell]

Companies aren't going to sponsor an entry-level candidate and you don't have the credentials to immigrate on ability alone. You probably need to get a degree, either here or Europe, or get years of work experience in Europe.

What was your motivation for the tourist visa?

[quantumofalpha]

> meaning I would need sponsorship for an H-1b work visa

There's your problem. H1B is just such a difficult and lengthy process today. Even for experienced candidates - I have a decade yoe at faangs, still couldn't crack it recently. And in your position, without experience and a degree, yes you're just wasting time.

You have to apply for H1B in March for a sub-30% chance (it's a heavily oversubscribed lottery) that you might get to start in October. Few companies are willing to go through it to import brand new overseas talent. Most just sponsor people already having permission to work somehow (H1B transfer from another co, F1 OPT, L1, through spouse etc) to retain them in the states.

Some alternatives of what you could do:

  * Go study in europe on the cheap. An undergrad degree is not a must for programmers, but still a very important piece of paper that you need to open doors later in your career. It's actually even a requirement for H1B: degree or 12+ yoe.
  * Go for masters afterwards in the US, not cheap but you can stay work for 3 years on STEM OPT and no lottery involved as with H1B.
  * Work for at least a year for an american company in europe, then you can transfer to the states on L1, lottery free.
  * Go to Canada, they can issue you a passport in 3 years with which you can come work in the states on TN visa, also lottery free.
  * Find second half with the right type of passport / visa that allows you to work in the states...

[facorreia]

Keep in mind that H-1Bs are requested in March with starting date in October, so if you were qualified for an H-1B, the earliest date that you could enter the US on that visa would be October 2022.

[666b20753a29]

This is surprising. Can you point me toward some sources where I can learn more?

[perpetualpatzer]

This article outlines 2021 timing, which is typical, from my understanding: https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-lottery-predictions/

[908B64B197]

> I'm a 20 y/o bootcamp grad with no college degree and 6 months of professional experience. I've been out of employment since May this year, and since mid-September I've been applying for software engineering positions across the US. Also I'm from Europe and I'm currently living in SF on a tourist visa, meaning I would need sponsorship for an H-1b work visa.

Hold on.

What were you doing before getting laid off? Were you working in the US? How?

[666b20753a29]

Nah. Went back to EU after bootcamp and worked there.

for the record it wasn't lambda school lol

[kevinventullo]

I generally agree with what others have said so I won’t give much prescriptive advice, but I will say that yes, the combination of little experience, no degree, and needing an H-1b are probably working against you and set the bar higher for recruiters to get back to you. No degree in particular tends to shut doors at big companies in my experience, especially for full time roles.

That said… dude, relax. You’re 20. No one has job experience at 20. If building stuff gets you excited, then build stuff. It will make you happier, and having stuff to show off on GitHub tends to be a good investment in your career.

[666b20753a29]

Do you think my age is a positive or a negative signal for people in SF? And what about other places?

[gregjor]

20 yrs old with six months experience and a bootcamp certificate sends a few signals. You don't have much experience, but you are eager and motivated. Your age also communicates that you are likely single without children, no mortgage or big external commitments, so likely to work 12+ hrs/day six days a week for free pizza and beer. You are probably going to do what you're told and not rock the boat (for a while anyway). If they have you on an H1-B you have a big incentive not to make a fuss.

Part of the reason companies prefer to hire younger people is their energy and enthusiasm, but another part (that they can't and won't spell out) is that older people have families and commitments and may want to actually have a work-life balance and not just hear about the company's "committment" in some HR feel-good speech.

Youth is definitely more a plus than a minus in SF/Silicon Valley but you need the experience, some solid accomplishments you can point to. Or you need good contacts that can tell you about the unadvertised jobs (which are most of the available jobs) and get you in the side door.

[3minus1]

> I know that I'm more than competent enough to hold down the positions I'm applying for

Lots of good advice in this thread. I just wanted to add, if you know the above to be true then don't give up. Maybe your first job won't be FAANG or a US company, but you can get your foot in the door somewhere and prove yourself.

[gremloni]

You need to join a consultancy and get placed in an employer where you can leverage your skills to turn that into full time and get your green card. It’s what I did when I was a dev — talk to your Chinese or Indian friends about it.

[gregjor]

Anecdotally I know a few foreigners (non-US citizens/permanent residents) who took this route and eventually got a green card (permanent residency) or an H1-B.

[throwaway2331]

Any tips on finding these consultancies?

What they usually go by?

[shoo]

check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IT_consulting_firms

I'm not familiar with how this works in the US, but have seen a similar thing in Australia. IT outsourcing firm wins a contract with some big client (bank, telco, etc) to do some IT work. Fly in their "consultants" to design/build/run the systems from offshore, work them hard, bill them out to the client at some multiple of what they pay their staff. As a consultant, if you're lucky enough to get allocated to a project in a country you want to migrate to, you hope that the contract lasts long enough to let you apply for some kind of skilled worker visa. While you're working on the contract you're only legally able to stay in the country through your employer, so you have very little power to quit or push for a better deal if the working conditions or pay are bad. If you're lucky enough for the contract to run long enough and your visa to remain and work in the country comes through, then you're able to decouple from being a serf of the consulting company and can quit and get a better job with a local company, etc.

Anecdotally you hear of situations where someone is 95% of the way through the process to become a permanent resident of a country, then their employer loses their contract with the big client and everyone is sent back to HQ.

[gremloni]

In the US I gave you my tips. Talk to an immigrant Chinese or Indian person.

[thorin1]

What to do? You are from Europe so there is quite high chance you can get quick and easy visa to Canada - Working Holiday.

And from Canada it's much easier to get to the US.

[reidjs]

Why preventing you from working in Europe for a while to gain experience? Is there a lack of jobs there? As most people have pointed out most US companies are looking for senior devs

[666b20753a29]

Nothing– I was under the assumption that 'the job market was on fire' and 'there is an endless need for devs' and that 'just keep going, you'll make it!'

Up until today, I was following naively optimistic advice from recruiters on my bootcamp's alumni network, without considering where their incentives lie.

I now realise that they're incentivised to encourage their alumni beyond truth, to never give up, because persistence is on average the best heuristic for getting a job (or doing anything, for that matter).

What I failed to consider was the nuance in my particular situation. I didn't research much, I just leaned into the job search, always trying to avoid inaction and premature optimization like a cancer. I 'put my head down' and 'kept grinding'. I now can see the dogma of persistence and how futile the last few months have been. Thankfully, this isn't much time in the grand scheme of things. C'est la vie.

[readonthegoapp]

Someone gave you some really bad advice

Keep looking and get a job in tech support and move to Canada and then try to come to America if you still really want to for some reason