[breakfastduck]

This kind of attitude from linux users is significantly responsible for its lack of wider adoption.

Who wants to learn something new when the people you need help from are going to treat you like a moron?

We both know its more involved than clicking a different icon.

[AdmiralAsshat]

It's quite easy to be smug when dispensing advice to a random internet recipient behind the wall of anonymity. It's much more so when someone comes to you, in person, asking for help.

I spent the better part of an hour this week helping a family friend over Zoom, trying to help her digitally sign a document. Her browser's PDF viewer couldn't render the form input boxes, so I had to help her download Adobe Acrobat Reader (yuck, I know, but, I'm not going to argue with her employer about alternatives). She's not dull by any stretch--she has a PhD. Just unfamiliar with the process. And when you see the process through fresh eyes, you get the sense that, oh, maybe this actually isn't intuitive at all if you've never done it before.

I don't know why so much of the Linux community lacks that feeling of empathy. Perhaps because their journey through Linux was a giant hazing ritual, and they feel like they've earned the right to haze the next generation? I have no idea.

[r_c_a_d]

I totally agree. I am still a Linux user, but at home I use a Mac now. Why? Because I got sick of having to work out why my laptop couldn't print things anymore after an update. Not once has that happened to the Windows or Apple devices that my family own. Linux is great for doing all sorts of clever stuff; it's not so good at doing the ordinary stuff reliably.

[Mikeb85]

Honestly, it's true. People are creatures of habit. My mother has been an accountant for 20 or so years and will still call me to complain about having to learn a new Excel version (when they moved to the 'stripe' interface? God help me...), or moving to a job where they use any software that's different from what she's used to. God forbid her iPhone changes absolutely anything when it upgrades.

And yes, Windows users have complained mightily about nearly every upgrade (remember the Windows 8 fiasco? Windows 10 was lesser, but people still found fault, now 11...) but still use it. Oh well.

Also, there was a lot of bitching about Ubuntu moving from Gnome 2 to Unity. It led to a DE fork and an entire distro picking up the cause. So Linux users bitch too. But with OSS you can change what you want and the companies can also tell you to piss off...

[Karunamon]

Sorta-sincere hot take:

Software for the masses seems to always be dumbed down, lose functionality, or otherwise become less useful over time as its targeted at the lowest common denominator. I'm good with there being an OS that's primarily for people who have the time and desire to understand their tools and want to get the most out of them.

This isn't some dig at casual users, it's about market segmentation. Not everything needs to be for everyone, and that's okay. With few exceptions, the average PC has plenty of choice in its operating systems.

[agumonkey]

No, he's right. It's like maths. A vast majority of people like to not like / learn it.

I've spent a lot of time with average users of all kinds. They couldn't care less. To them it's a thing that has less value than a coffee cup.

I could, and would sit down and explain to them everything that is cool, cute about every layers of a computer, with simple language and pragmatic use, with history context, and bits of benefits for their lives. They just don't want to hear it.

Some will say it's geek stuff. Some will say "I'm too scared". Some will try and forget 13 seconds later.

The insane side of this is that these people will spend grands on a new machine that will tickle their sense of free improvement (which will not happen). Again every 3-5 years.. forced by ecosystemic pressure to push old stuff out.

ps: I agree that GP was a bit smug, but even then, the population is what it is.

pps: even at work, if I offer to explain something, or write a script, or a macro to help, most people will react negatively for various reasons (very often its petty emotions, like jealousy, or disdain).

[ziml77]

No, he's not right. A computer is a tool. A tool should help you accomplish tasks. A well-designed tool that is meant to be used in the average household should be easy to use and hard to screw up. It shouldn't feel like it's getting in the way.

There's no reason why anyone should need to know the details of how a computer works to use the computer. The history you're so eager to tell should just be trivia.

[magicalhippo]

> There's no reason why anyone should need to know the details of how a computer works to use the computer.

Paraphrasing the CEO of Sun Microsystems (IIRC): you don't need to know how to operate a nuclear power plant to get light when you flick the light switch.

[agumonkey]

Have you ever tried to teach people how to use a computer or is that paper talk ? because in theory everything is well designed, but very few things are.

Of course "in theory" good tools are solid and simple.. in reality bro how insane the world is. Every update, every fix, changes the poor ground of habits users tried to build. Just yesterday I had to help a neighbor because she couldn't grasp a word document embedding a invisible table as layout forbidding the caret to move right as she used too. I think you're very much misunderstanding the vastness of psychologies, of tooling variations, of hidden variables and parameters and the immense layering of software.

People are confused by the slightest change in computer interaction. How do you want to make them understand when to click, double click, right click, drag, press. What's an URL, what happens when they click save, why errors or not ? people don't even know what saving a file is. Really, go in any office you can pick 30% of users totally clueless about folders and files.

Every attempt at hiding information causes trouble, it taps into shallow understanding and rote memory. People become mere users and it sucks. History is interesting, details are interesting, your brain loves it, if it's tied to a tangible concept and use for the people. It's not about making VBA6 classes or a talk about Linus Torvalds acrobatics for the sake of geek pleasure. It's to situate what are the reasons (as in reasoning) for why things are the way they are. Even your keyboard has a long history.