[superyesh]

>My answer to anyone who asks for kafka: Show me that you can't do what you need with a beefy Postgres.

Sorry thats just a clickbait-y statement. I love Postgres, try handling 100-500k rps of data coming in from various sources reading and writing to it. You are going to get bottlenecked on how many connections you can handle, you will end up throwing pgBouncers on top of it.

Eventually you will run out of disk, start throwing more in.

Then end up in VACCUUM hell all while having a single point of failure.

While I agree Kafka has its own issues, it is an amazing tool to a real scale problem.

[dwohnitmok]

I think anotherhue would agree that half a million write requests per second counts as a valid answer to "you can't do what you need with a beefy Postgres," but that is also a minority of situations.

[IggleSniggle]

It's just hard to know what people mean when they say "most people don't need to do this." I was sitting wondering about a similar scale (200-1000 rps), where I've had issues with scaling rabbitmq, and have been thinking about whether kafka might help.

Without context provided, you might think: "oh, here's somebody with kafka and postgres experience, saying that postgres has some other super powers I hadn't learned about yet. Maybe I need to go learn me some more postgres and see how it's possible."

It would be helpful for folks to provide generalized measures of scale. "Right tool for the job," sure, but in the case of postgres, it often feels like there are a lot of incredible capabilities lurking.

I don't know what's normal for day-to-day software engineers anymore. Was the parent comment describing 100-500 rps really "a minority of situations?" I'm sure it is for most businesses. But is it "the minority of situations" that software engineers are actively trying to solve in 2021? I have no clue.

[dwohnitmok]

Note superyesh was talking about 100 to 500 thousand requests per second. Your overall question stands, but the scale superyesh was talking about is very different and I am quite confident superyesh's scale is definitely in the minority.

[IggleSniggle]

Oops, yes, was omitting the intended "k", totally skewing the scale of infrastructure my comment was intending to describe. Very funny, ironic. Unfortunately I can no longer edit that comment.

[Cederfjard]

I’m not sure if you’re omitting the k in your numbers, or missed it in the other comment? Do you mean 100-500 and 200-1000, or 100 000-500 000 and 200 000-1 000 000?

[IggleSniggle]

Yes, quite ironically, I accidentally forgot the "k" in my numbers. Oops.

[Serow225]

that seems like an awfully low number to be running into issues with RabbitMQ ?

[fernandotakai]

at least for me, every system has its place.

i love posgresql, but i would not use it to replace a rabbitmq instance -- one is an RDBMS, the other is a queue/event system.

"oh but psql can pretend to be kafka/rabbitmq!" -- sure, but then you need to add tooling to it, create libraries to handle it, and handle all the edge cases.

with rmq/kafka, there already a bunch of tools to handle the exact case of a queue/event system.

[zbentley]

I think having ad hoc query capabilities on your job queue/log (not possible with rabbit and only possible by running extra software like KQL with Kafka, and even then at a full-table-scan cost equivalent) is a benefit to using postgres that should not be overlooked. For monitoring and debugging message broker behavior SQL is a very powerful tool.

I say this as someone squarely in the "bigger than can work with an RDBMS" message processing space, too: until you are at that level, you need less tooling (e.g. read replicas, backups, very powerful why-is-it-on-fire diagnostics informed by decades of experience), and get generally higher reliability, with postgres as a broker.

[doliveira]

Yeah, once you do have to scale a relational database you're in for a world of pain. Band-aid after band-aid... I very much prefer to just start with Kafka already. At the very least you'll have a buffer to help you gain some time when the database struggles.

[anotherhue]

Indeed! That sounds absolutely like it requires a real pub/sub. 'Actually needing it' is the exception in my experience though.