[KerrickStaley]

That's not what's happening here though. China has for years put enormous effort into promoting its worldview on the China/Taiwan issue in every way it can, even though that worldview contradicts the facts on the ground. Taiwan is de-facto an independent country with its own government and military sovereignty, and the majority of citizens of Taiwan are happy with that arrangement.

China saying that Wikipedia Taiwan is spreading misinformation is just an effort to warp reality to fit China's alternate-universe version of the facts.

[CogitoCogito]

Taiwan (i.e. the ROC) is not a "de-facto" country, it _is_ a country.

I don't get the feeling you're anti-Taiwan, but I think calling Taiwan a "de-facto" implicitly questions its status and should be avoided.

[anakaine]

I'm reasonably certain the "de-facto" wording is used as Taiwan isn't actually recognised formally and fully as an independent country internationally. Thats not to say it shouldn't be, but it acknowledges the current truth.

[thefringthing]

They don't even officially acknowledge themselves to be an independent country; they claim all of China as their territory, not just Taiwan.

[CogitoCogito]

The ROC definitely considers itself a country.

And I'd like to point out that the ROC and the PRC don't even have the same land claims. The PRC claims the mainland and Taiwan. The ROC claims the mainland, Taiwan, and Mongolia. Mongolia claims Mongolia. There are three separate countries making these claims.

The fact that (some of) their claims overlap doesn't magically mean that the ROC and PRC aren't two separate countries. It just means that they are two countries that claim more land than they control.

[Jon_Lowtek]

This is very much outdated and a relic of the times when anti-communist world powers believed they could maybe remove communism from mainland china. It is a believe held today only by a small minority. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3951560

[thefringthing]

This is just wrong.

As of today, the governments in Beijing and Taipei agree that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That's the "One China" principle.

Taiwan does not assert that there is a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan. Taiwan's government still claims that the Republic of China still exists and that it is the legitimate state in all of China including Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang. This position is accepted by very few countries.

The fact that they are able to act in many respects as though they are the government of a sovereign country whose territory consists of the island of Taiwan is what makes them a de facto country.

[Jon_Lowtek]

> As of today ...

... the Taiwan independence movement claims only the island of Taiwan for the Taiwanese nation, and is a core aspect of the Pan Green Coalition, which has 56% of the legislative and the president.

[thefringthing]

It's true that Taiwan's official position no longer reflects either reality or the desires of its people.

I think it would be ideal of Taiwan could be come de jure independent and sovereign, but that would essentially require some deal between China and the USA which is certainly not forthcoming.

[Jon_Lowtek]

The moment Taiwan officially drops their claims and declares Taiwanese Independence, China will attack.

[thefringthing]

Right. China's position is that a declaration of independence from Taiwan constitutes an act of war against China by what is essentially a US/NATO proxy. So the US/NATO would have to trade something to China for Taiwan and it's not clear to me that they have anything to offer that matters to China.

[CogitoCogito]

The ROC (i.e. what people mean when they say "Taiwan") and the PRC are most certainly two separate countries. The fact that they have largely overlapping land claims doesn't change that. The fact that they both historically claim to be the legitimate government of some no longer existent greater China doesn't change that. They are two separate countries. That is the current status quo.

[thefringthing]

Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

[dragonwriter]

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country?

Unlike both the ROC and the PRC, they don't actually govern anything in practice, irrespective of whether it is coextensive with their claims. Upthread post claimed the ROC and PRC are both governments of real and separate countries in practice, independent of their overlapping theoretical claims. Doesn't seem a related thing at all to your question.

[thefringthing]

Right, Taiwan is a de facto but not de jure country. That fact is what the person upthread was objecting to in the first place.

[CogitoCogito]

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

Exactly claims are cheap. Hence why the PRC's claim that Taiwan is its territory is so worthless given that it has _never_ controlled it. Also why the ROC's claims to the mainland and Mongolia are so worthless given that they haven't controlled any of that for more than 70 years.

The claims are cheap and meaningless. The reality is that China and Taiwan are two separate countries.