[rob74]

So much for freedom of speech... it has become a knee-jerk reaction to call everyone who criticizes the current policies of the Israeli state an antisemite - as if the one had anything to do with the other. EDIT: of course, in this case the tweets sound like she's completely questioning the right to existence of the Israeli state, which is more extreme than criticizing Israel, and could also get you into trouble here in Germany.

[xdennis]

Criticizing Israel doesn't mean you're antisemitic... but it is quite common.

[jgb1984]

Why would it be common? Israel is a nation built upon stolen land and decades of oppression of the Palestinian people. A modern day apartheid state with a strong and worldwide lobby apparatus. Labeling any criticism of the state as antisemitic is weak and dishonest.

[invalidname]

I think rhetoric like yours is problematic. It doesn't help the Palestinian people. The way to help them isn't to cast blame on one side or the other. There's plenty of blame to go around. The way to move forward is to help moderates on both side reduce the toxic nature of discussion here.

In that spirit let's start with the thing I agree with here. I actually agree that people shouldn't jump on the "antisemitic" labeling. In that you're correct. We need to separate misinformation and antisemitism which are different things. In fact the right wing in Israel claims Berni Sanders (a Jew) is anti-Israel. Which IMHO is insane.

So a few things are problematic in what you said.

Stolen land - not exactly. Israel was originally settled by Jews up until 2000 years ago when the Romans kicked Jews out. That's settled history. Jews returned over the years especially after the holocaust to a land occupied by the Turks and later on the British. Jews were granted a part of today's Israel by the UN as the British left... So far so good. No steal. There was a war immediately after due to dissatisfaction over the division mostly from the arab side. The war was "won" by the Jews (despite great bloodshed) and Israel was formed. I'll skip ahead despite many "dirty" attempts over the years. In 1967 all countries surrounding Israel ganged up to destroy it. All were much larger in terms of population and funding. Israel took a bold preemptive strike and won extra land in 6 days. Effectively beating armies double in size. None of that is stealing.

Now you can be talking about the west bank or Gaza. Here Israel made a mistake of starting with settlements. I agree that was stupid. But it isn't stealing. Israel has a peace treaty with Jordan from whom it got the west bank and with Egypt to whom it returned the Sini desert and other huge territories. They don't want Gaza back.

Israel tried to give the Palestinian people a country on multiple occasions only to be met by bombing and in-ability to compromise from the Palestinian side. There were multiple opportunities along the way to give the territories to the Palestinian people which were rejected by their leaders. Notice that there was never an independent Palestinian country. It was always owned by other countries so Israel never "stole" it. I'm not saying it's innocent. Not by a longshot but calling it stolen... Not accurate.

Oppression - yes. I actually agree that the occupation created a bad situation all around. This sucks for both sides with bombings, missiles etc. Unfortunately you can't wave a magic wand to stop this and Israel can't "just leave" as we saw in Afghanistan things can get WAY worse. In fact when Israel left Gaza the Hamas terrorist organization took over and did mass executions. The life of people there is much worse than it was before.

Worldwide lobby apparatus is a bit much (and that does ring antisemitic even if you didn't meant that). Yes there's lobbying but it exists on both sides with Palestinian victim hood also playing along.

[david38]

My Palestinian friends would beg to differ.

What you’re saying is “we stole a good chunk of your land, offered to partial use of some of it back, and you’re an ungrateful crybaby.”

Let’s see how that works when someone does that to you. Oh and let’s not forget how Palestinian organizations are terrorists while the Israelis are police and soldiers defending their country.

“Sucks for both sides” - riiiight, when casualties are 10:1, resources are even more lopsided, the victor rolls out the good-old “both sides”.

[rich_sasha]

I like your approach of balance before judgment. I'd like to pick a bit at your individual arguments

I think talking about "theft" of land is always going to be tricky. Someone else goes back further. Abraham wasn't born in Jerusalem. Nor is it productive - who "owns" Alsace and Lorraine? What about Northern Ireland? Land in the Americas - European (mostly) immigrants, or Native Americans? So I would leave those bits aside, and concede that he who conquers, retains, as much as we like or dislike that. Fair game to Israel for being better at waging wars, most of which were indeed started by its neighbours.

What does stand is Israeli state's treatment of Palestinians. Regardless of what state owns the land, people deserve some basic living rights. And it's not like every Arab joined Hamas in 1949. UNRWA puts the number of Palestinian refugees at about 5 million [1] - that's a lot, given the current population of Israel is something like 10 million. And that doesn't even count Palestinians displaced internally. Why would these people be displaced if their own state, now Israel not British Palestine, gave them decent living conditions? Surely anything beats a refugee camp, in which over 1.5 million Palestinians still live?

Israel's gesture of giving Palestinian people a country is clearly an afterthought. We'll keep this, and you get the other bits. Winner's privilege I guess. But it's mostly unproductive, desertified land. In any case, what Palestinian people got is not what they owned pre-1949. Now if I take something away from someone and give them something else, that's not nice, regardless of whether we call it "land theft" or "country giving".

I think you're right that Israel is in a difficult spot with negotiations with Palestinians: any concession appears to be exploited by Hamas et al to wage war and terrorism against Israeli (mostly Jewish) people. I don't know how to fix it, it's a hard problem many tackled, and Israel has every right to defend itself and its citizens. It is key to remember though that this situation is indeed created by the Israeli state. With no acceptance at all of terrorism, or the wars waged by its Arab neighbours, Israel created the environment in which Palestinians feel they have no other options than destructive and cruel terrorism. What good-faith peace plan can they engage in? In Gaza they can barely build a house, with no building supplies and next-to no electricity. Seriously, what life ambitions can someone have if they are born in the Gaza strip? Or a 10-year old whose village was just demolished in the West Bank?

Ironically, what you label as the most anti-semitic theory ("worldwide lobby apparatus") is I think true. Whenever Poland meddles with anything to do with Jewish history (which happens with some regularity, and usually in a very heavy-handed way), at the very least it gets lambasted by the US Secretary of State, and of course Israeli politicians - and often more allies. It would clearly be ridiculous to suggest that there is an evil clandestine council of Jews ruling the world, but to claim that Israel's international influence is only as big as its own voice is just as crazy. I'll stay away from any labels of "good" or "bad" influence, I'll settle for "extremely effective".

EDIT: it struck me after writing all this. Perhaps this is the core of the contention: Israel is just so damn effective at everything it does. Armed forces, vaccinations, international politics, and many more. And while every country is actually trying to get ahead of its competition, by means fair or (usually) unfair, most have at best a just-over-50% success rate. Small-minded, selfish policies, land grabs and skirmishes succeed as often as they fail, and usually are too small to create a lasting distaste. But Israel is just so good at the game everyone plays, and it becomes visible. Surrounding Arab countries play the same game, but are mostly losing (let's keep the civilians out of it). Now the question is: if you're so much better than the opponent, should you play a different game? Should you keep pushing then further and further into the dirt, just because you can? I don't know. But it gives me the heebie-jeebies to think I could have been born Palestinian in the shadow of an Israeli state.

[1] https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

[joelbluminator]

> Israel created the environment in which Palestinians feel they have no other options than destructive and cruel terrorism

This is your interpretation. The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled; to me the Palestinians clearly declined the 1947 partition plan (and before that the Peel Plan proposal in 37) and then the 90-00s Oslo and Camp David initiatives. They are making it quite clear the "right of return" is part of their identity by now, not something they are willing to give up. So it's important to ask what are we arguing over here - the 67 border occupation or the whole of the land?

> but to claim that Israel's international influence is only as big as its own voice is just as crazy

Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually; every European, most Indians and Chinese, every Americans - everyone knows who the Palestinians are. But the fact is there have been countless genocides and dislocations much much worse than anything that happened during the Arab-Israeli conflict that most people know almost zero about. And let's not forget 3rd generation Palestinian are still counted as refugees which is unprecedented. I am not saying all of this is a result of the "Palestinian Lobby" but clearly they are getting way more attention than other stateless people (heard of the Kurds much lately?). Also saying stuff like the Jewish Lobby or Israeli Lobby reminds Jews of stuff that people said about them (and still say about them to this day actually) which is truly horrible; is that so hard to grasp? You can try showing more sensitivity and at least be careful in how you phrase your arguments.

[rich_sasha]

> The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled

I'm not claiming it is. But Israel cannot turn around and say "none of this is our fault" with an innocent face. We're more talking about balance of "guilt". I wouldn't even necessarily say that Israel is more guilty than Palestine (if such comparisons even make sense, and human suffering can be reduced to a ratio). But Israel is a free, democratic, developed country. It has one of the highest ratios of university-educated people. I think the bar for acceptable behaviour is higher than for a haggard group of people living in abject poverty.

> Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually

Palestine certainly gets publicity, but power doesn't seem to follow. I'm not criticising Israel for having an out-sized influence, but it's not in any way comparable to that of Palestine.

Please note I never said "Jewish lobby" or anything of the sort.

[mikevm]

So many outright falsehoods in your statement, and you even wonder? Lol.

[jgb1984]

Feel free to highlight the many falsehoods. I didn't say anything that Human Rights Watch and the UN haven't confirmed many times before.

[mikevm]

No thank you. I'd rather spend my time more productively. Oh, and I actually live in Israel and am well aware of the one-sided nonsense being spewed by both of these organizations.

[baud147258]

though it's not helped by actual antisemites hiding their antisemitic speech as criticizing Israel

[kevingadd]

This logic does the antisemites a favor, frankly. It allows them to pull all criticism of Israel under their ideological umbrella so anyone with legitimate objections to that nation's leadership has no choice but to ally with the antisemites because you've pushed them out of all reasonable spaces.

[joelbluminator]

> has no choice but to ally with the antisemites

Jeez no choice but to join the antisemites, ok man...