[joelbluminator]

> Israel created the environment in which Palestinians feel they have no other options than destructive and cruel terrorism

This is your interpretation. The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled; to me the Palestinians clearly declined the 1947 partition plan (and before that the Peel Plan proposal in 37) and then the 90-00s Oslo and Camp David initiatives. They are making it quite clear the "right of return" is part of their identity by now, not something they are willing to give up. So it's important to ask what are we arguing over here - the 67 border occupation or the whole of the land?

> but to claim that Israel's international influence is only as big as its own voice is just as crazy

Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually; every European, most Indians and Chinese, every Americans - everyone knows who the Palestinians are. But the fact is there have been countless genocides and dislocations much much worse than anything that happened during the Arab-Israeli conflict that most people know almost zero about. And let's not forget 3rd generation Palestinian are still counted as refugees which is unprecedented. I am not saying all of this is a result of the "Palestinian Lobby" but clearly they are getting way more attention than other stateless people (heard of the Kurds much lately?). Also saying stuff like the Jewish Lobby or Israeli Lobby reminds Jews of stuff that people said about them (and still say about them to this day actually) which is truly horrible; is that so hard to grasp? You can try showing more sensitivity and at least be careful in how you phrase your arguments.

[rich_sasha]

> The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled

I'm not claiming it is. But Israel cannot turn around and say "none of this is our fault" with an innocent face. We're more talking about balance of "guilt". I wouldn't even necessarily say that Israel is more guilty than Palestine (if such comparisons even make sense, and human suffering can be reduced to a ratio). But Israel is a free, democratic, developed country. It has one of the highest ratios of university-educated people. I think the bar for acceptable behaviour is higher than for a haggard group of people living in abject poverty.

> Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually

Palestine certainly gets publicity, but power doesn't seem to follow. I'm not criticising Israel for having an out-sized influence, but it's not in any way comparable to that of Palestine.

Please note I never said "Jewish lobby" or anything of the sort.

[sndman]

> EDIT: it struck me after writing all this. Perhaps this is the core of the contention: Israel is just so damn effective at everything it does.

Indeed, Israel is extremely effective. Especially in 1948. I find that there is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there) here in the US. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 750,000 people were forced to leave their land in 1948.

My parents were among them. They were forced to leave with my 1 year old sister. Ask any older Palestinian. No one chose to leave in 1948. There was a clear understanding that the Haganah would kill them if they stayed.

Call it what you will but this is universally recognized as ethnic cleansing and dispossession of land and homes. It's simply settler colonialism (the number of settlements continue to grow every year).

This was well documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine) among others. Most people simply hear news about violence, rockets, suicide bombers, etc. and do not understand the context. It's as if the Palestinians did not exist and the ethnic cleansing did not occur. There were over 500 small villages cleansed of inhabitants (see All That Remains by Walid Khalidi) and bulldozed over. Many now have settlers living nearby.

This is just history, not antisemitism.

[joelbluminator]

It was a bad civil war. Just like your parents felt they were risking death, the Jews felt the same. The Jews had a good reason to feel that, its not far fetched they were facing massacres if they lost. And expulsion for sure. Some Arab leaders made no effort to hide their wishes to eliminate the Jewish state. It became a bad zero sum game. Ilan Pappe is a known anti Zionis, which is fine, but I can cherry pick Historians who are more sympathetic to Zionism just as easily. Israel was actually not that effective in expelling Arabs as you probably well know around 20% never fled and eventually became citizens. They get more equality as Palestinians in Israel than they can ever dream of in any other Arab country.