[roganartu]

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch.

This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me.

Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren’t rounding your back to bring your arms together.

Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)

I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don’t think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them however you like.

[slightwinder]

> Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander

Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.

> Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)

But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.

[JeremyNT]

> Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.

Indeed, I saw the title of this post and I wondered if the poster was looking for a setup similar to the Freestyle... and it turns out they were!

I made the switch a couple of years ago from a standard layout mechanical to the "Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB" (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features) and would not go back. This device can't achieve quite as much separation as the "dual keyboard" approach in this blog entry, but it's not too far off.

As for the switches, in addition to the mechanical version with its various switch options, they also make a rubber dome variant of this keyboard, which happens to be cheaper.

[OJFord]

Just to be clear on the distinction, are we terming 'split segment' the keyboards in two halves that have (roughly) half the usual keys on each device, and saying purist's 'split keyboard' is.. two 'normal' keyboards?

Nothing is 'split' in the latter though? I've never thought 'split keyboard' a misnomer in referring to two pieces that look like a keyboard sawn (often carefully around staggered keycaps) in half, i.e. split?

[palunon]

No. It's hard to explain, but split segment looks like this: https://imgur.com/a/kjWmciy (so, one physical keyboard, just with a very different layout)

Split keyboards are usually 2 separate keyboards with half the key each.

[OJFord]

Oh I see, thanks. I have seen those, just didn't think of it - they seem strictly worse than two separate halves to me, the main thing that appeals to me (I don't have one) is positioning either have however, at whatever angle, and differently to the other, to suit me and how I happen to be sitting at the time. Split segment seems to make a big assumption about what people find uncomfortable (narrow/er than shoulders) and offer a different fixed solution.

[eyelidlessness]

> (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features)

Yeah I gave up and learned to love that there’s a big gaming market for the keyboard I want, even though I don’t want the flashy backlight colors. It’s weird but now I mostly shop for gaming keyboards and then filter out where I can’t turn off the gaming-specific stuff.

[makeitrain]

I have a kinesis freestyle pro, and it's great. About 18" of separation. I only wish it had a steeper tilt angle.

I always thought full size keyboards should split the alpha keys and put the numpad in the middle. That would drastically improve ergonomics.

[0xmarcin]

I am owner of Kinesis Freestyle Pro too. I bought the keyboard with a tilt kit and pads. I am using it with macbook and I must admit that mac layout could be better (option and command keys are too small). Besides that the keyboard itself takes a lot of space on my desk, it is really huge compared to other keyboards that I had (including The Code keyboard).

Split design is definitely a win, but I needed some time to get used to it. After about a month keyboard started to feel natural. To be honest I would like to see a medical research on using various keyboard types. Personally I don't feel much difference compared to typing on macbook. Most problems that I had with my wrists where always connected to using mouse.

[httpsterio]

that's actually a pretty fresh idea I could get behind.

[binoct]

If you don’t mind a little DIY effort and effect you can cut the cable between the halves and splice in a longer cable. Had a coworker who did that and was very happy.

[ramses0]

Such an awesome keyboard!!

[eyelidlessness]

> But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.

I mostly agree. That said, my Keychron K1 (red switches, v3 so this may be out of date) is not noticeably louder to my very noise sensitive ears than a similar Apple low profile keyboard. It’s the first mechanical keyboard I’ve owned that hasn’t drawn laughs or ire in remote meetings.

I suspect the quietness is because the low profile keys bottom out inside the case rather than keycaps hitting the casing. There’s still the sound of the switch, but even if I were a better typist with more sensitive reflexes I’d hear that.

I’ve tried a lot of other “quiet” mechanical keyboards. The Matias one was softer at the expense of having a more rubber dome feel while typing (and like every Matias I’ve owned the switches went glitchy and eventually failed). The other “for the office” (brand I can’t recall) red switch keyboard I had… well, I think it was as annoying to me as everyone else.

And, not trying to shill the product (and again I have no idea if v4 has regressed), but I also have a very noise sensitive puppy who hops up and gets distracty if I so much as bump anything on my desk. She’s just as calm with the K1 as my MBP’s built in keyboard.

The switches might not be to everyone’s liking. But there’s definitely room for mechanical keyboards to be less loud than they are even used less effectively than intended (i.e. me).

[ricardobeat]

I have the Keychron K1 (also red switches) and an Apple keyboard in front of me right now. The K1 is significantly louder at normal typing forces. ~60dB vs ~45dB using a sound meter app.

[eyelidlessness]

Fair enough. My measurements were obviously more subjective :)

[Abishek_Muthian]

I have accessibility needs so I use soft keyboard and a trackpad. I keep the keyboard at an angle on the closed laptop but the trackpad was on a flat surface which caused some wrist fatigue.

I join the keyboard and the trackpad together with a double sided tape[1] with a metal scale to the bottom for added rigidity and now I can use both of them at a preferred angle. I no longer have wrist fatigue as I can rest them on a flat surface while both typing and tracking.

[1] https://abishekmuthian.com/accessibility-hack-for-keyboard-a...

[jagger27]

This is why the new hot thing in mechanical keyboards is gasket mounting and PCB relief cuts. There is some progress happening here.

A good desk mat helps too.

[kitsunesoba]

Yes, the board I'm currently using is gasket mount and sitting on a nice thick pad which helps, but what takes it to the next level is U4 Boba Silent linear switches, which are ridiculously quiet. Altogether I barely even hear myself typing, I can't imagine it's terribly audible over video calls.

[trashcat]

I'm glad that this is the way customs are headed. I love my Think6.5 V2. Gasket mounting has been game changing for me.

[and0]

After Googling for an embarassingly long time I think I'm figuring out what gasket mounting is.. how does that meaningfully changed how the keyboard feels? Just makes the whole typing surface a little flexible / bouncy?

[hadlock]

I had to google this as well. It looks like the idea is to move the surface that the key switches attach to, to a sub-assembly, which can then be mounted in a variety of slightly-more-flexible sub-assembly. This is the kind of minutae I would have loved to get into when I was younger. The closest analogy I can think of is a solid body (standard) electric guitar, vs. a semi-hollowbody electric guitar, although the mechanics are very different, ultimately you're attempting to modify the percussive effect by modifying the frame.

https://keyboard.university/200-courses/keyboard-mounting-st...

https://www.sweetwater.com/c592--Semi_hollowbody_Guitars

[jagger27]

There are a couple different techniques, but it really all boils down to dampening/softening the bottom out with rubber or silicone somewhere in the case sandwich. It gives it some “give” beyond the travel of the switch. A thick desk mat does this a bit too.

[numpad0]

Are those that better than Realforce and HHKB?

[jagger27]

They’re very different so it’s hard to say if they’re better. I find the stock HHKB domes way too light.

[bsg75]

I happen to be shopping Kinesis Freestyle keyboards today. A common complaint is the ABS keycaps combined with something in the case design echoes the switch noise, even with Silent Reds.

Lower quality keycaps at the Kinesis price range being be main gripe on the Freestyle Pro.

[Hnrobert42]

I opened up my Kenesis Advantage and put in a piece of mass loaded vinyl I had from a different project. I absorbed all the twangy echo.

[zacharycohn]

I used a Freestyle for a while. Great keyboard, terrible keycaps. Would recommend replacing them ASAP.

[enchiridion]

Is just having a softer touch the answer?

[dotancohen]

That is half the answer. When I let people try my mechanical keyboards, especially the Cherries, I emphasize that the goal isn't to mash the key until it no longer goes down. Rather, the goal is to stop mashing somewhere between the actuation point (usually ~2mm) and the end of key travel (usually ~4mm). This corresponds to 45-60 grams of force depending on switch type, and staying in this range makes for a relatively quiet experience on quiet switches.

But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

[LAC-Tech]

> But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit?

Back when I was in open offices the annoyances were people yelling to each other with me in between, people singing, private phone calls etc. A click wouldn't even have registered.

[cesarb]

> > [...] I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

> Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit? [...] A click wouldn't even have registered.

Am I the only one who still remembers when typing, even in offices or at home, meant sharp hitting noises with a DING at the end of each line?

[Moru]

Nope, we are many that lived with that :-)

There is a difference between someone pressing a button now and then, and a person that actually writes 8-10 cps. You don't give them an audio feedback keyboard or you will go deaf.

[beepbooptheory]

This is incidentally also great advice for gaining dynamic range on a piano

[flamwenco]

Having recently gotten back into mechanical keyboards, partially for ergonomic reasons, I can say the Moonlander so far is the single board I regret purchasing.

Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very poor experience compared to some other boards I've tried. For far, far less.

And to fix this, instead of revising the Moonlander, ZSA is happy to sell you an $80 tripod kit, tripods not included.

You can get the benefits of a split board for a _fraction_ of the price by getting something like a Lily58 or a Corne, which have far saner thumb cluster designs, and have plenty of solutions for tenting. And if you're like the author of the linked article who can't handle high travel keys, both of those boards are available with low profile mechanical Choc switches.

[Cu3PO42]

Not to discredit your experience, but as another data point: I love my Moonlander. I love it so much, I have two, actually.

Personally, I find the thumb clusters most comfortable in a position that also gives a good tenting angle, but I think criticizing coupling the two is fair.

That said, I'm not sure how the tripod kit would help you solve that one way or the other. I thought it was designed to go on the outside, not where the thumb clusters are.

[ajford]

Yeah, I can't imagine the Moonlander being a great fit for someone with normal/small hands. I got a Moonlander and happen to love it. Though, I really wish they hadn't decided to make the thumb cluster a tenting leg. I think that's my biggest complaint about it.

ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well, if you happen to have a printer.

The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.

[flamwenco]

In fairness to ZSA, I did miss that page on printable files. I do still think it's a little silly to need to print a new leg for the board to remedy probably the biggest design flaw.

>The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.

For what it's worth, I used to think the same thing, and now I happily do all my daily programming work on a Reviung41, which has even less keys than the Corne.

[ajford]

Totally agree with you there. I really think they should start shipping with a second set of "inside" legs for those who want to use a tenting leg instead of using the thumb cluster.

I'll probably get to a smaller key count eventually. I'm almost finished adjusting to the Moonlander now, and it took me almost two months to get used to the loss of the separate F1-11 keys. They're now on the number row in a new layer, so I figure with enough time I'll get used to that and can toss more into other layers, but that's proving to be a slower process for me. I think I've had this board for almost 8 months now (had to look up my shipping info, as I thought it had been much less).

I really do love the fact that the mech keyboard community has spawned so many great keyboards, as it makes it so easy to find something that fits you best, and makes it so easy to customize.

[garren]

I’m hooked on the ergodox classic, but I’ve used an ergodox variant of some kind for at least 6 years now and won’t go back.

The little ortho-linear keyboards that are popular now make me cringe, they look worse than laptop keyboards.

I was toying with the idea of picking up the moonlander, but it looks kind of big. The wrist rests seem ridiculously large. Can you use the tenting feature without them?

[Cu3PO42]

If you take the Moonlander apart, you can probably remove the wrist rests and it would still tent fine.

However large it may seem, the size seems good to me. I only actively use (i.e. place my hand on) maybe 2/3 of it, but the remainder makes it so that the angle is more comfortable than I imagine it would be if it were shorter.

It's worth mentioning I have relatively large hands. If you don't, you might need a fair bit less space.

[felideon]

Though I haven't gotten one yet, the Kyria also has some nice thumb clusters. You can print out the layout[1] to test how it lines up with your fingers.

[1] https://docs.splitkb.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010627159-Can-...

[jrockway]

I just 3D printed some wedges to go under my Moonlander: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961

I have made my own keyboards before, hand-wired with 3D printed cases, and it's probably 20-40 hours of work; significantly more than the $400 that ZSA charges.

I agree that they messed up the thumb clusters. I used to use an Ergodox and that had a pretty goofy arrangement, and the Moonlander doesn't really improve on it.

[3np]

I have a Lily58 that I’m still getting used to, got any tenting tips? So far I’ve only been putting a towel under the far end to angle it a bit, which is far from ideal.

[flamwenco]

I have seen people using various different size rubber feet on the bottom to tent their lily, I believe they used a mixture of large rubber bumpers intended for roombas, and the normal small bumpons.

There should also be a variety of 3d printed solutions too, I've seen tenting feet you can screw on to the bottom and cases that let you use large screws on the outside to create tenting legs

[EForEndeavour]

You must be thinking of the Kinesis Advantage. Kinesis has also made split keyboards for a while: https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/#keyboards

[lolc]

I found R-Go Tools Split to be a nice and light keyboard for my mobile rig. The only annoyance was the throbbing light in the corner. But a patch of tape fixed that. The stock cable wouldn't allow placing the parts as far apart as in the article though.

https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go...

[appleiigs]

Thanks, looks interesting. FYI: the FAQ says this about the light: Yes, this is possible. You can do so by pressing the key combination "Fn"+"A".

[lolc]

Thanks, that works. But it's not permanent. My tape is :-)

[burlesona]

That looks promising, but I heard that model doesn’t work on Macs. Do you know if that’s correct?

[lolc]

I don't see why it wouldn't. It's a USB keyboard. But I use it on Linux, not Darwin.

[secabeen]

It took me years to find a split, ergo-style keyboard with mechanical keys, but I finally did. The freestyles have them, but I don't like the super flat layout.

https://c9ergo.com/

I am loving the split, angled setup with my preferred Cherry MX Blues.

[westurner]

The MS Natural split keyboards are easy to find but aren't satisfyingly clicky mechanical keys just like olden times.

How long do these last?

Edit: "Ergonomic keyboard" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard > #Split_keyboard:

> Split keyboards group keys into two or more sections. Ergonomic split keyboards can be fixed, where you cannot change the positions of the sections, or adjustable. Split keyboards typically change the angle of each section, and the distance between them. On an adjustable split keyboard, this can be tailored exactly to the user. People with a broad chest will benefit from an adjustable split keyboard's ability to customize the distance between the two halves of the board. This ensures the elbows are not too close together when typing. [2]

[ZeroGravitas]

Kenisis is in the process of launching a refreshed, split version of the Advantage. They have some teaser images on their Twitter.

But they also have more conventional split keyboards (though you can also buy a 90 degree tenting kit to make them weirder again)

[michaelbuckbee]

Note, the Kinesis Advantage is the one with "cups" that have keys in them in single keyboard.

The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a hassle.

[jamie_ca]

I picked up a Kinesis Freestyle 2 last year, with the longer (20" I think) cable, and it's been wonderful. Standard QWERTY, and the cable is long enough that I'm in a comfortable typing position leaning fully back into my chair with my arms sitting on the armrests.

Only complaint is that the macro buttons off to the side just emit standard key presses (eg Cut sends Control+x), which I guess means I should look into the Freestyle Pro which _is_ programmable :)

[cliff_badger]

take a look at this: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/

I think it is a better choice than the pro, as it costs the same once you purchase the wrist rests (which the pro comes with).

You can re-macro every key on the board, and the macro stays with the board if you move it to a new computer.

[toyg]

As a buyer of both the original Freestyle Pro and the Edge (first edition, pre-rgb), I endorse this message. Either keyboard will likely take your pain away, but the Edge is the better option.

The Edge has everything that was missing from the Pro. It truly is the perfect keyboard, in my opinion: split, backlit, mech switches, fully (and easily) programmable, multiple layouts, internal memory, extra macro keys. What more could one ask from a keyboard...? The only shortcoming is that the keycap profile is custom, so it's hard to pimp if you are into color schemes, but that's it. I don't understand why they chose to market it to gamers, when it's the perfect hacker's tool, but I guess them kids are more willing to splash the cash these days.

[outworlder]

Plus support.

After dropping coffee on it for the N-th time, I left it outside to dry. I didn't notice that the location I placed it had direct sunlight - plus, it was during the summer.

One of the spacebar keycaps warped to the point of being unusable. I tried several options (including attempting to 3d print a replacement). Was almost giving up, emailed support.

They sent a replacement keycap, for free. For the Freestyle Edge - the one with the blue backlight, that's discontinued.

I'd say the major drawback that it has is the "gaming" name, which makes it awkward to get your company to expense :)

I'll add another drawback: the switches are not removable either. So if you wanted to replace your switches with different ones (for instance, WASD), you really can't (practically).

[2muchcoffeeman]

This guy seems to have given up too soon. There are also normal spilt keyboards like the UHK. And even cheaper Chinese options like the Mistel Barocco. These Chinese keyboards are what most people should get if they need a split keyboard.

Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.

I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of tenting.

They are also programmable which is useful when you can’t use software to remap your keys.

[ghostly_s]

Well I for one will say I did a lot of research on split boards about a year ago and never came across Mistel. It even has my preferred tenkeyless arrow placement!

[2muchcoffeeman]

Yeah, it’s hard to get information about them and they have the weird names. I only know about them because certain suppliers around here stock them and a friend had some other mechanical keyboard from them.

[InvertedRhodium]

I ordered my UHKv2 in January and ended up buying a Dygma Raise in the meantime while I wait. I'm sure the UHK will be a lovely keyboard, when it finally ships.

[airstrike]

I'd love recommendations on a split keyboard with low profile keys. The "normal" angle on keyboards kills my wrists...

[johncalvinyoung]

I got a UHKv1 from an early adopter friend (who had multiple UHKs) and have loved it. It was hard getting used to it at first, but it was the only keyboard that didn't make my forearms ache, when my tendonitis flared up.

[Separo]

Also on the UHK v1 and have since not been able to use anything else. Especially because of fast layer switching, home row arrows and mouse layer. Although checking out the Dygma Raise now :)

[ozbonus]

Mistel is a Taiwanese company and their keyboards (at least the ones I've seen and bought) are made in Taiwan.

[unemphysbro]

Love the mistel. I've been using it for 4 years and it's great!

[sbahr001]

I had the kinesis advantage 3 for a little over a week. I have to say by far the most comfortable keyboard I have every used. I returned it because I didn't have the spare time to "adjust" to the layout. Its funny its been months and I still miss the feeling lol.

[Matumio]

A week? Well, how much time do you expect to spend typing over the next 10 years...?

It took about a month or two to adapt IIRC. I would suggest to remap and reconfigure some keys/layout after observing your actual usage. Also change a few uncomfortable application key combos and relearn, especially if you're not using a US layout.

Reprogramming (swapping) keys is easy, but I admit it was a big hassle to also keep a custom layout synced/working between Windows and Linux over the years. But it's great once it's done.

By now I'm owning three kinesis advantage, one at the office, one at home, and one to make sure I never have to type on a flat keyboard ever again if anything breaks. I get RSI just from looking at those.

I also tried a fully split (freestyle2) keyboard, but it didn't work for me. I think it was the lack of the bowl shape.

[softwarebeware]

My Kinesis Freestyle 2 has a "pivot" hinge that is removable. Once it is removed it allows the two halves to be entirely separate and up to 8" apart. I took the hinge out years ago.

[awinter-py]

I have the kinesis with 20" cable. wish it were slightly longer for cases like 'one side on the couch arm', but it's a million times better than angling my hand around a laptop touchpad

layout slightly awkward. escape key is off in the wilderness, keep hitting F1 by accident. Wouldn't mind Y and B keys duplicated so I can hit them with either hand.

[jon-wood]

I'm curious, is the Moonlander enough of an upgrade over the EZ to be worth dropping that sort of money on a second keyboard? What are the big differences you've actually noticed having made the jump?

[kortex]

I have both. I agree with the gripes about the thumb cluster acting as a pivot, it's not an optimal design but it's plenty comfortable for me.

The big reason I wanted to try it is the thumb layout is more ergonomic and conducive to chording. On the right thumb cluster I map the four keys to 15 bit encoded layer. I don't _use_ all that space, but I have over a thousand keypoints at my disposal.

But I do use the bottom 3 (plus base) quite heavily. It's more ergonomic to move frequent keys to near home rows in a higher space.

[warp]

I don't have any experience with the Ergodox, and I loved the Moonlander when I first got it. But having used it for about 8 months now I really don't like how they've implemented the tenting -- the thumb cluster ends up too far away, making the inner most thumb keys on both sides unreachable (for me).

I'm likely going to replace it with something with better designed thumb clusters when I can (probably a Kyria or maybe a Corne variant).

[josephferano]

My Kyria hopefully arrives tomorrow.

[salamandersauce]

Kinesis also makes split keyboards. Since they are talking about mushy keys they are clearly talking about the Kinesis Freestyle with membrane keys.

[tetha]

There is a new kinesis freestyle gaming, with LEDs (meh), but also mechanical switches (cherry). I'm very happy with mine.

[mikepavone]

The Kinesis Advantage line is as you describe, but there is also the Freestyle line which are actually split