[sersi]

I'd say there's a clear difference between what they were doing post Deng Xiaoping and what they've been doing since Xi Jinping came to power. It's much more worrying now.

I remember 15-20 years ago, my friends in China had hope that eventually it would open up but there's no longer any hope there. The few friends who are still outspoken (and are much much more careful than they used to be) now have no hope of this whatsoever.

[causi]

The difference is a turn in the tide of public opinion. The real battle, the one for the hearts and minds, has been won. Talk to almost any Chinese national who hasn't had a ton of international exposure, like a fresh international student. They either don't care about what the CCP is doing or they fully agree with the justifications.

[vkou]

You've described the view of most nationals of any country about their country's foreign policy.

Remember '03 when two thirds of Americans seemed utterly convinced that Iraq was an existential threat to the security and prosperity of the United States? Or '21, when half of Americans have suddenly remembered that they actually want other people's children to continue fighting a forever war in Afghanistan?

[causi]

I'm not talking about foreign policy. I'm talking about disappearing dissidents and putting ethnic minorities into reeducation camps.

[sersi]

I agree but to be fair, I do remember that a lot of fresh international undergrad students just arriving from China tended to be very patriotic and pro-CCP even back in early 2000s. The difference is that a lot of them changed their minds after a few years living in a different country.

I did notice back then that graduate students who had completed undergrad in China tended to be much less pro CCP and not buying that much into things. This does seem to have changed.

[burnerid]

There is thing called survival bias. Your friend could have similar thoughts with you and then you became friend.

There are many reasons you don't hear how majority Chinese think, it could be majority of them doesn't read/speak english, it could be toxic comments and community environment prevented them from speaking out, it could be media biased reports, and not mention a lot of advanced countries' supremacy.

If you are not faimilar with that, try to talk with people lived in super rich neighborhood and super poor neighborhood, you'd be amazed how difference people really think and speak out.

If the same thing happens in different regions/countries of the world are treated differntly, in a lot of ways, is called bias, not a serious thinking.

[tablespoon]

> I'd say there's a clear difference between what they were doing post Deng Xiaoping and what they've been doing since Xi Jinping came to power. It's much more worrying now.

> I remember 15-20 years ago, my friends in China had hope that eventually it would open up but there's no longer any hope there. The few friends who are still outspoken (and are much much more careful than they used to be) now have no hope of this whatsoever.

Yes. I don't think they were ever exactly for liberalization, but Xi took a hard turn against it (and made that policy): https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea....

Liberals (both the American and more classical kind) often seem to assume their ideals will eventually prevail, but nothing guarantees that.

[star-trek-fleet]

> Liberals (both the American and more classical kind) often seem to assume their ideals will eventually prevail, but nothing guarantees that.

Same.

History has no single evidence that pure ideology movement can shift public opinion substantially and maintain that change in serious historically meaningful time period (let's say 50 - 100 years).

[depaulagu]

Agreed