Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by YeGoblynQueenne 1739 days ago
Note that this is from memory but, for example, the author of the linked blog posts makes an outrageous distinction between the free people of "Sparta", which he calls "Spartiates" and all "Spartans" which includes the helots. This is were your expression "3% of the population (spartiates)" comes from.

That is an outrageous distinction that is not found in any ancient or modern source. It appears to be something that the author completely made up in order to support his revisionist interpretation of the history of ancient Sparta.

First, there is no way to make a distinction between "Spartan" and "Spartiate" in the Greek language. In Greek, ancient and modern, a person who lives in, or is from, a place called "Sparta" is a "Σπαρτιάτης", i.e. "Spartiate". "Σπαρτιάτης" is most commonly latinised as "Spartan", sometimes as "Spartiate", but there is no semantic difference between the two.

Second, there is no modern source I'm aware of, other than the linked series of blog posts, and certainly no ancient source that refers to the helots as "Spartans", "Spartiates", "Lacedaemons", or anything else but "helots", or simply the slaves of the Spartans. This is because ancient authors only ever refer to helots when they want to point out how cruel were the Spartans (which obviously must exclude the helots themselves from the group of "Spartans") and don't really care about them, or their fate, otherwise. So the idea that the population of "Sparta" was mostly made up of slaves is a figment of the author's imagination.

It is true that the slaves of the Spartans were (many) more than the Spartans, but this is also true of most other Greek city-states, where manual labor was performed by slaves and many citizens owned more than one slave. In fact, other Greeks did not treat their own slaves with any less cruelty than the Spartans. For example, the main source of richess of classical Athens was the silver mined from the mines of Lavrion where thousands of slaves, including children, were made to work in conditions that we would, today, rightly find revolting.

From memory again, there were other errors, all of which were the result of the author trying to play up historical themes for clicks, but I would have to re-read the series of posts to remember. In any case my recommendation is to turn to primary sources if one is interested in the history of Sparta. Read Thucydides, read Plutarch, read Xenophon, read Plato, read Aristotle, read Herodotus even, but keep in mind that everyone who wrote about Sparta had a political affiliation, either to Sparta, or to the enemies of Sparta, and in any case ancient historians were not always 100% accurate.

2 comments

> It appears to be something that the author completely made up in order to support his revisionist interpretation of the history of ancient Sparta.

The author addresses this VERY directly and at length in a "Conclusions: Who Matters?" section of one of the posts. For example (though the whole section is worth a read):

> All too often, I see students read the Greek contempt for the poor man, the non-citizen, or the slave with horror but then immediately turn around and replicate those patterns of thought in their own thinking about these societies (well of course the ‘mob’ cannot be trusted to rule – Thucydides and Xenophon said so – to which I am endlessly responding, ‘yes, but should you believe them?‘).

> Indeed, this credulous approach to the source tradition – accepting not only the facts they give, but also their guesses about what is to them the distant past and their judgments about the moral worth of a Sparta that probably never existed – is so common that it has had a name since the 1933, le mirage spartiate, coined by Francois Ollier. Rousseau and Jefferson had an excuse for their gullibility – we do not.

https://acoup.blog/2019/08/23/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

The passage you quote does not address the distinction between "Spartiate" and "Spartan" that the author is attempting to make, and which is the subject I discuss in my comment above (in fact, that is the subjec of the "it" in "it appears" in my comment).

The author of the blog posts has basically made up the idea that "Spartiate" and "Spartan" are two different words with different meaning. "Spartan" or "Spartiate" on the one hand, and "Helot" on the other hand are two different categories, but "Spartan" and "Spartiate" are different Latinisations of the same Greek word, Σπαρτιάτης and not similar-sounding words with subtly different meaning, ast he author claims. This claim, that "Spartan" and "Spartiate" are different words representing different categories of people is the revisionism that I am commenting on.

Can you quote a passage from the linked series of blog posts that directly addresses this revisionism?

> outrageous distinction between the free people of "Sparta", which he calls "Spartiates" and all "Spartans" which includes the helots

> That is an outrageous distinction that is not found in any ancient or modern source. It appears to be something that the author completely made up in order to support his revisionist interpretation of the history of ancient Sparta.

Terms like "Spartiate" are standard.

"Spartiate" is used to mean the free citizens of Sparta, as is "Spartan", but the author claims that one means the free citizens and the other the helots.

That is not standard.