[coralreef]

I would pitch it as a global, provably immutable database network where anyone can participate pseudonymously, where state control is difficult and thus censorship is difficult.

Bitcoin is actually just a database. It makes no promise about money or value. But it turns out that those qualities mentioned above are also important qualities for good money, and so humans assigned value to the system.

If you don't think the network is useful, don't use it. Short it. But don't act as if there are no tradeoffs between security and convenience. Don't act as if negative interest rates and infinite quantitative easing are normal things.

[lwansbrough]

> I would pitch it as a global, provably immutable network where anyone can participate pseudonymously, where state control is difficult and thus censorship is difficult.

The network is completely traceable. Anti-censorship is worthless without protection. I do something on the network my government doesn't like, they track me down and put me in jail. Great system. The failings of political systems are not overcome by changing the financial instruments used.

[coralreef]

The network is completely traceable.

It is traceable when the appropriate dataset is overlaid on top of it. Ie. IP addresses, known public keys associated with people/organizations. Within itself, you don't know who is sending or receiving.

Anti-censorship is worthless without protection.

Protection comes from anonymity/pseudonymity.

I do something on the network my government doesn't like, they track me down and put me in jail. Great system.

Yes, its almost as if you need to take steps and precautions to ensure that your government cannot track you down. You know where its even easier to trace your transactions and freeze your assets? Your bank account.

[lwansbrough]

> It is traceable when the appropriate dataset is overlaid on top of it. Ie. IP addresses, known public keys associated with people/organizations. Within itself, you don't know who is sending or receiving.

You mean the kind of information governments readily have access to?

> Yes, its almost as if you need to take steps and precautions to ensure that your government cannot track you down. You know where its even easier to trace your transactions and freeze your assets? Your bank account.

Ever heard of cash?

[coralreef]

You mean the kind of information governments readily have access to?

Ever hear of a VPN, Tor, or BitTorrent? How's the war on movie piracy going?

Ever heard of cash?

Yeah, I've also heard of civil forfeiture where the police take your money without cause or ability for remediation.

I've heard of authoritarian governments who scan your face and keep your social credit score, and will prevent you from making transactions and opening accounts, making your life much more difficult.

I've heard of a house fire, and cash burns pretty easily if I recall, even if its the new stuff made of plastic polymers.

I've heard of counterfeit bills too.

[sgammon]

the FBI can, and has, seized bitcoin. the FBI cannot, and has never been able to, seize cash they cannot find or otherwise touch with their hands.

[coralreef]

The FBI can seize Bitcoin if the private keys are insecure by way of being physically available and unencrypted on servers/devices domiciled in the United States, or by cooperation of a party with access to said private key.

The FBI, or any government entity, cannot seize Bitcoin from an address otherwise. To do so would demonstrate the ability to break the encryption underpinning Bitcoin's opensource key creation protocol.

Put another way: there's a billion dollars sitting at addresses right now for you to steal. If you can crack the keys, go steal that money and make it public. That would destroy Bitcoin quickly. The open market bet is that you (or anyone else) can't.

[0-_-0]

Cash is easy to trace