[cf499]

"Maybe if the infrastructure people were involved in development discussion earlier, they'd be able to raise their hands and say: wait a minute, you're going to blow up our logs."

"Maybe if you invited the operations people earlier, they'd have some ownership in the product."

Awww... You like each other but none of you dare to make the first move :D

[ozim]

Whole thread reads like bunch of guys shouting at each other "but but ... I know better!".

IMO this is main topic of the thread and of the article.

There are groups of people who instead of spending time to figure out how to work together and understand what other side has to say, they just throw shit over the fence.

Maybe some could start by reading points at least couple of times and try to understand instead of trying to write personal experiences as fast as they can in reply to other comment that hurts their ego.

[_y5hn]

The gap is a leadership problem, someone is accountable for all the "shipping". It's a made by divide and conquer strategies (more "abstraction" at higher level).

But keep blaming the war on peons.

[ozim]

It does not work in healthy companies.

Maybe it works if you assume all employees want to do bare minimum and don't get blame for what was not delivered.

What I see most of the time is that people want to deliver, people want to be valued by their work.

Of course I am cynical as the next guy from me in terms of "getting on high horse" but there is a lot of people who want to do their job and want to do it well.

Playing divide and conquer, playing non-existing scare deadlines is going to work once or twice and any smart employee will leave after that kind of crap. Other option is you are going to get smart employees who cannot afford to leave, but because of that crap they will just stop giving any fuck.

I sign up in reality into "self fulfilling prophecy employee", when you treat your employees or other people with expectation that they are thieves - in the end they will steal from you.

If you treat your employees as if they suck - they will suck.

Of course there are bad apples but if one goes the road that everyone want's to rob him, he will get robbed.

[happymellon]

Ops/Infra teams don't usually start software projects and not aware that there is a project for them to offer their help with.

My experience has been that they can be very accomodating and supportive if you do talk to tham.

[Aeolun]

Yeah, all those devs are just sitting there at their desks clacking away on their novels.

There is always a project for them to offer help with, since the business will not suffer devs to be idle.

[jasonlotito]

So instead of devs inviting ops people to the meeting they want ops people at, you are saying ops people should go up to devs while they are working and offer to help, even when they aren't needed?

No, that's not smart.

[_y5hn]

Help offered, but still radio silence.

Anyways, Ops have their own responsibilities and none of the core ones are centered on devs.

[jasonlotito]

> Awww... You like each other but none of you dare to make the first move :D

Only if you ignore reality. If you hold a meeting and don't tell me about it, how can I attend? Both sides want the ops people involved. Maybe the one having the meeting should invite them.