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by ghoda 1759 days ago
I don't know where this is going. Perhaps prepping for the global warming riots. Is there a way out of surveillance?
10 comments

The Australian government has always dreamed fondly of China's control over there population and has been working tireless to get there.
> Is there a way out of surveillance?

Vote with your feet. Divest out of Australia.

Make sure there's a brain drain out of the country.

Leaving Australia is currently very difficult for Australians in Australia even if they reside abroad. But if one could leave, where should they go to?
> Leaving Australia is currently very difficult for Australians in Australia

Just like Cuba and Eastern Europe when the USSR was still around. Wonder why.

going by the number living and moving to canada/west coast it can't be to hard for those under 35 with the working holiday visa
Australians in Australia are not allowed to leave the country they way they were prior to covid. Before, like any other reasonable country, all you needed was a valid passport. Heck, the U.S. doesn't even require that much. But now Australia requires more than just a passport, and to my knowledge that has had the net effect of not letting any Australians out.
They've even made it so citizens who reside outside Australia can't easily leave again if they want to temporarily re-enter the country.

Previously living overseas was an automatic exemption to the exit ban, but now this must be applied for with proof of overseas residence.

As Australian bureaucracy is barely up to the task of organising a chook raffle this is pretty scary. The news articles I've seen give me the impression that the application process is a bit of a dice roll as to whether you get it or not with people re-applying dozens of times over months and no transparency on why their exit permits are rejected. Whether it will be this hard for overseas resident Australians to escape home remains to be seen.

As a way of discouraging Aussies abroad from popping back in for a family funeral or holiday and clogging up the quarantine system it seems a rather effective deterrent (stay awhile, stay forever!) but the minister responsible reckons that's not the motivation for the rule, so you have to wonder what they're thinking.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-12/government-defends-ne...

Wouldn’t a brain drain lead to even dumber laws?
Democracy leads to dumb laws. It's a tyranny of the bottom 51%ile.

I say this a little tongue in cheek, but it's a real problem I've yet to understand -- how can an outlier intelligent person thrive in a system that caters to the masses? The masses have an incentive to drain any marginal value out of the intelligent, and have the political power to do so.

Edit: @majormajor sorry HN wont let me reply. The reason would be because the bottom 51% have something to gain from extraction. The top 51% however are already superior and dont need to rely on extraction to fulfill their wants/needs.

51% might have been too broad a number, but do you get my drift? Those in the lower intelligence brackets have a lot to gain, but those in the upper intelligence brackets do not have a lot to gain

This is true, and that's why there's constitution. Constitution makes sure that government power is limited to issues that don't change power balance from people to government or from minority to majority groups. It makes sure that no matter who runs the country, they can't ruin it.
The implication here is that there's a sort of "pareto distribution" of capability when it comes to voting "well". This was an issue that the founders tried to solve (in a bad way) by attempting to limit voting to property owners.

Of course, at the time this almost exclusively meant wealthy white men - which is obviously a terrible way to run a voting system.

The converse of this is the "bread and circuses" problem with Democracy. This was supposed to be mitigated by the "House of Lords" equivalent in the U.S. - The Senate.

The Senate was supposed to have been a buffer that protected against popular vote because they were assigned by the state legislature. They were beholden to the welfare of the state, not to direct-democracy political campaigning and all its ills.

Personally, I think its time to re-evaluate the 17th amendment to see if it had the desired effect, or resulted in massive unintended consequences.

Why would the bottom 51% have more influence than the top 51% or the middle 25-76% or whatever other random fraction you pull out of your butt?
>Why would the bottom 51% have more influence than the top 51%

51 + 51 = 102%

The bottom 51% have more influence than the top 49% because one is a majority. There is your answer.

I think you missed the point. By this logic, the top 51% have more influence than the bottom 49% so why isn't GP saying they're the ones driving democracy?

As an aside, if you look at the elected representatives of Australia, I suspect you'll find most of them are highly educated.

Why must the 50% percentile vote with the bottom half rather than the top half?
Most of the early Federalist papers deal with this problem of democracy in very damning terms. It leads to failures of the state -- usually within a hundred or so years. That is why the US decided to be a Republic instead.

Outside the US, countries after WW1/2 opted for democracies instead of republics with strong foundations. We're witnessing the point of failure due to the exact issues outlined in those papers.

If there is such a convincing answer, why don't you actually state it, instead of just saying that others have talked about it?

It's very non-obvious to me why there's a natural "coalition of the bottom" versus that just being one possible way for things to shake out.

(It's also worth noting that the original American system already suffered a MASSIVE failure of the state - coincidentally also around the hundred year mark - which makes me think maybe they didn't have things perfectly figured out anyway. It hurts the credibility of the appeal to tradition/authority.)

Other kind of dumb laws. Authoritaranism is a special kind of dumbness historically associated with really smart people.
Authoritarianism is an expression of fear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality

disclaimer: I distance myself from the groups currently associated with these schools of thought. I also think the English version of this article is lacks scientific savoir faire.

The gender inequality part is empirically and historically wrong.

edit: To be honest the whole article is trash, better read it here (Psychological theory):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm

Not the problem anymore for the brains that fled.
Kinda weird for the attitude toward governments allegedly violating freedom to be “it’s okay as long as it doesn’t affect me.”
Why shouldn't a person exercise their most powerful vote, voting by their feet and exit the system to reintegrate in a different system.

Serfs did it in the past when feudalism become to harsh and moved to the cities to make a living. Europeans did it when life became to harsh in Europe and moved to the Americas.

Of course one can avoid most domestic laws by moving to another country. My point is that when someone asks for a solution to this problem, I’m assuming they are looking for something to actually help solve the problem in that country, because they’re probably already aware that simply leaving is a viable way out for themselves (if they can afford it).
No, it's not okay. But if you can't fix it, why stay in a bad environment?
At that point, who cares? You live somewhere else, not your problem. That's sorta the whole point of leaving a country for political reasons, you feel it's unfixable and not worth hanging around. It's defeatist and doesn't help the people still in Australia, but it's a valid value judgement.
Or vote with your… vote. The relative benefit is that it can actually work, in theory at least.
Theory isn't very useful when something like this comes to the table.

How many times has this theory been cheated in the last thousand years?

the answer is, a lot

You really think any of what's going on in Australia is the will of the people?
They have people voting over 3% tax increases and gay marriage, not surveillance. Doesn't matter who you vote for, every party is in favor of increasing their power.
We never had a vote on same sex marriage. It was more a completely optional mail in survey whose results the govt. was completely welcome and within its rights to ignore.

On that one, at least, the politicians were too spineless to take a stand.

So which country is better in that regard?
Yes
> Divest out of Australia.

Time to sell AAAU etf, you can't trust a bank if the gov't is corrupt.

If you have been trusting Australian banks I would refer you to the recent Royal Commission:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/apr/20/banki...

Join the bureaucracy executing it. Make the experience of being surveiled as onerous and intrusive as possible so that the fever can break sooner.
If there are riots, then a worldwide crash of the financial markets seems like the more likely cause
Vote. Or be more active in politics.
Voting is how this mess started... how is voting harder going to fix what voting created? Nothing short of a common national ethos of trust in an almost unremovable leader can solve this problem. A leader who can listen to experts and make a choice, even if unpopular, without fear of next election and without the need to aggrandize more power and wealth.
That's the kind of rationalization which got Europe into WW2...
"Fear of the next election" is one of the few things that keeps elected leaders in line.

You want a wise, just dictator for life, and maybe you luck out and get one who reigns beneficently for a few decades, but who's to say their successor will be as good, or the next one, and on and on until you inevitably get a Stalin.

Put another way: if the leader dies, and heir A spends all their effort on ruling effectively, and heir B spends all their effort on beating heir A to the throne, how can heir A succeed? You'd need metrics for being a good ruler which are immune to Goodhart's Law.

Given that—over time—power inevitably centralizes and inevitably is abused, those tendencies must be counterbalanced; or else power must be regularly reset by more crude means.

and if that doesn't work wait 4 or 5 more years and vote again, hope for the better!
Voting is mandatory and it has bi-partisan support.
Voting is already mandatory in Australia.
Too late.
You can take a man out of surveillance but you can't take surveillance out of a man
Take the red pill?
What does this mean, and how does one take it? Googling it comes up with misogny and a documentary of the same name.
Oh sorry, yes it the matrix reference.
Right, but like besides a reference, is there something you'd suggest as an action? (which represents taking the redpill)
The "Red-pill" in the Matrix signifies an action which one cannot go back on. It is an action which requires the user to shatter their built-up version of reality forever (signified by the the blue-pills they have been taking all along).

We need more people to challenge their view of reality, and accept that things may not be as happy and comfortable as we want them to be for the security of our futures and our children's futures.

And no, I don't mean "global warming is destroying the ability for life to live" wise, I mean in terms of how much our politicians and public servants are truly serving us at this point. Voting for lifelong politicians more or less got us here, the red pill is accepting that these people may have always had more sinister plans in mind than we thought.

Ok, so this is what I was after in my question. Thank you.

So "Take the redpill" is (in this case) a statement about taking a different path with politics (politicians) .

Couldn't have described it better. Well put @hatware
The Matrix
Being a gray man is probably the realistic solution for most people.
What do you mean by this?
Australia's penal colony origins are beyond ironic anymore.
I bet they're pretty worried about unrest from climate change. Most of the continent is pretty hot and arid already and it's not going to get better when temperatures start rising.