[Ajedi32]

Yes, in my opinion. If a law like this were passed in the United States I'd be vocally campaigning to get the law repealed and the people who voted for it replaced in the next election. Sadly, the Chinese people don't have that option, which only makes the situation that much worse.

[grecy]

Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that bans under 18s from consuming alcohol and cigarettes?

Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you buying and using asbestos in their buildings?

Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you from buying and owning an anti-aircraft missile system?

Our democracies have plenty of laws about things we're not allowed to do. Some of them are for our own good, some are for the overall good of society.

[whatevertrevor]

And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society.

Not all regulations are born equal and some of them are definitely not worth fighting against.

[grecy]

> And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society

I agree, though definitive evidence is clearly *not* the threshold for when laws to protect us are or are not created.

For example, there is a mountain of evidence that smoking is exceptionally bad for adults, but there's no law against it. I could smoke 20 packets a day from now on. I could even drink 10 bottles of vodka a day perfectly legally.

[justinmcp]

One of the most interesting things about China related discussions is the flood of people who will arrive and post points/arguments with various levels of false equivalency with "western" law/practise/etc. _Not_ that you are doing that, maybe, but thats one of the challenges in these conversations, who is being genuine and who is not?

China _is_ authoritarian, denying that is ridiculous. The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests.

That democracies have corruption or vested interests (whether "positively" motivated or not) influencing laws does not make the process or the results equivalent.

[erklik]

> who is being genuine and who is not

Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall.

> That democracies have corruption

But it's not corruption. That's the issue.

"When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy" [1]

That's not corruption. If America was a true democracy, the country would look completely different.

> The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests.

It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public legitimacy.

Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different.

1. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america...

[justinmcp]

> Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall.

Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement.

>> That democracies have corruption > But it's not corruption. That's the issue.

Either deliberately, though in-attention or personal need you, are mis-interpreting and or changing the subject.

> It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an > astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public ? > legitimacy.

There is no good way to assert that, but it's a pretty common refrain.

> Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's > own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different.

I'm not American.

All this cycles round to what I was saying. You could just be an interested observer, passionate about seemingly connected ideas. Or you could be deliberately derailing, trying to muddy the waters. There's no good way to tell, but ultimately it still paints China in a bad light - eventually no one will believe anything.

[grecy]

> Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement.

Why? Please elaborate.

As the person you replied to said, I feel that ideas should be judged on their merit, not on who came up with them. Plenty of "bad" people have good ideas and visa versa.

[justinmcp]

Sure.. but what I asked was who was being genuine, not whether exclusively ideas should be judged on their own merit, it was the other poster who pivoted what I said in that way. Similar to the way the poster below changed "making some rules that benefit themselves" to "its not possible to be successful if laws just benefit themselves" - which is not what I said.

It's a pretty typical tactic - but whether it was done because they want to boost the CCP or wether they just aren't good or careless at understanding or expressing themselves? I don't know.

Being genuine; the field of human interaction isn't some philosophical paper; if your cousin consistently lies, and has always lied; it's a good bet they will do so again - not evaluating each thing they say on its merits is a rational choice.

If everyone in a group is prone to lying or misdirection - evaluating each idea will lead to exhaustion - trust matters.

[erklik]

> Either deliberately, though in-attention or personal need you, are mis-interpreting and or changing the subject.

I don't think I was doing either. If I was, please explain what exactly you were saying and what I mis-interpreted.

My understanding is this:

1. China is authoritarian. 2. They make laws that benefit themselves (i.e. CCP) without care for the populace (populace benefit is secondary) 3. Democracy is corrupt. 4. However, even if corrupt, it's better since it is not equal to China's system where the laws are made mostly out of interest for the CCP.

This was my interpretation.

However, as I said, the evidence is the other way around.

1. China is authoritarian -> Sure.

2. They make laws that benefit themselvse ahead of the populace.

Poverty in 1990 -> 750 million. Poverty in 2016 -> 7.2 million. That's World Bank figures. Not China figures. Clearly, either they had policies actually aimed at benefiting the populace or the laws that benefit CCP also align extremely well with the populace. In which case, we should learn from them since aligning incentives for politicians and populace is a pretty insane trick.

3. Democracy is corrupt.

Democracy is not just corrupt. It is corrupt in a way that makes the voice of the citizen entirely useless. Democracy does not represent your views if you live in America at least.

4. However, even if corrupt, it's better since it is not equal to China's system where the laws are made mostly out of interest for the CCP.

Economic elites and the organized interest groups group control America. Not the average person.

> There is no good way to assert that, but it's a pretty common refrain.

What? World Bank figures should that China has pulled massive amounts of people out of poverty, and increased their Quality of Life. Public Legitimacy seems clear since there aren't mass protests (Hong Kong showed that it is certainly possible).

Forget that. Just fly to Beijing. It's arguably more modern than most Western cities and talking to people will show you how their lives have changed. I genuinely don't understand how you're denying the economic miracle that the CCP has engineered.

> You could just be an interested observer, passionate about seemingly connected ideas. Or you could be deliberately derailing, trying to muddy the waters.

I am the first one. I don't understand how I derailed? Or how you thought that happened? Either you entirely misunderstood me, or just have no interest in actually talking about the discussion?

> There's no good way to tell, but ultimately it still paints China in a bad light - eventually no one will believe anything.

I mean, again, you can literally dismiss every argument that goes against your preconceived notions and pretend that the other is a shill but that's a very weird way to live in my opinion. It's more better to actually critically analyse what the other says and break it down or agree with them.

If your goal is to see China in a bad light, it doesn't matter what I say. You will see them that way.

This is what I meant by drinking the Kool_Aid too much. (Not limited to Americans but the entire Western sphere)

[beaunative]

"are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests."

Come on. That's just false. You can't operate a country successfully at China's size by making law just to benefit the cadre / personal interests.

Don't get started by advocating that benefiting the people is just a way to benefit to cadre. It's infalsifiable and just pointless.

[dillondoyle]

I 100% believe that it's coordinated gov shills. I cannot fathom that our worldviews live in such insanely different realities.

Maybe I'm the delusional one.

but given the many many reports on CCPs active propaganda and controlling of media/online content (hell the whole point of this discussion) gives me plenty of evidence to support large-scale coordinated govt propaganda tools, if not here, definitely elsewhere.

[dillondoyle]

Annnd -4, and -1 on another comment that I don't think even is controversial, and aligns with views that most on HN typically hold on speech.

[maccolgan]

I'm placing my bet on the fact that vast majority of Chinese people probably support this, and that's fair.

[bradleybuda]

If only there were some political system by which we could find out if this were true.

[trefoiled]

73% of Chinese people consider their government to be democratic. Only 49% of Americans said the same of their government.

The Chinese Communist Party is seen as a meritocracy within China, which draws on an ancient tradition of bureaucracy. It's hard for Americans to understand.

[1]: https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1281853054078386181?lang...

[roughly]

I don’t mean this to disagree, it’s a genuine question: to what degree can one really conduct a public poll about the relative merit of the Chinese government within China? In the US, there’s no credible argument (or at least no widespread belief) that saying bad things about the government to a pollster will get you incarcerated; as an outsider, I don’t know that the same is true in China.

[tshaddox]

It sounds like any bad reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is bad, and any good reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is lying or has brainwashed its population. That's a pretty flawed epistemology in my opinion.

[_carbyau_]

Trying to figure out truth or fiction from China is complicated by the CCP's direct censorship/influence.

Good news comes almost direct from CCP. Bad news is from anywhere-but-CCP.

Neither good/bad news can be judged as 100% true or false but the "CCP influence" means I have to use a fudge factor that decreases the trustworthiness of good news in comparison to bad news.

It doesn't outright invalidate "good news" but it introduces a significant element of doubt.

[roughly]

I don’t believe that’s what I said or what I asked.