[martythemaniak]

I think it's unfortunate that Apple chooses to not build it's hardware in the US, or model its manufacturing on Germany's successful mid-size firms.

Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that support local manufacturing and local economies, than have that sitting in Apple's vaults. In the end, this is not unlike the the local food movement - people would rather pay extra and support local farmers and economies.

[olalonde]

> Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point.

Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese?

> If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that support local manufacturing and local economies, than have that sitting in Apple's vaults.

Unfortunately, the Chinese also pay premium dollar and would also rather support local manufacturing and local economies. As China is deemed to become Apple's largest market, it makes sense for Apple to support the Chinese economy rather than the US one.[1]

[1] http://blogs.computerworld.com/18517/apple_crazy_china_will_...

[viae]

> Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese?

Because the consumers of every nation on earth, deep-down, are superficially patriotic. We don't want to recognize that the global economy is post-nation state. We want to pretend that when we buy an American company's products it is, American. Just as if we decide to buy an Italian sports car we want it to be Italian. Companies prey on these emotional ties to our identities in all manner of ways. In the parent thread's example, Apple does that by labeling their products' packaging, "Designed by Apple in California."

[technoslut]

I don't agree with the 'superficially patriotic' remark, at least in regards to Americans. I believe that after seeing the effect of all these manufacturing jobs being closed down, many would opt to pay a higher price knowing that it would save jobs.

I don't necessarily blame companies for these emotional ties. There was a time when those ties really meant something.

[delackner]

In this case "many" means a minority. The majority have voted with their dollars over the past several decades and overwhelmingly chosen products that are manufactured wherever is cheapest.

[technoslut]

It really is only four decades and I meant for today's American consumer in retrospect. Today's consumer doesn't have a choice. It is rare to find a product that hasn't been outsourced for labor.

[technoslut]

I do think that Americans are more deserving of products being produced here. I've always felt (maybe others do not) that you give back something to where you grew up or the society you are apart of. I see it no different in this case. Sony has done the same in Japan and I respect them more for it.

There are great benefits to the US market and many, such as Apple, have taken advantage of it. They also take advantage of the system and keep their money overseas so it won't get taxed.

[delackner]

Wait, what? Sony has mostly abandoned their Japanese production of Televisions. They are made in China. Maybe you're thinking of Sharp?

[technoslut]

Sony still keeps a majority of their factories in Japan.

[delackner]

You are right, Sony manufactures a lot of things in Japan. But it also manufactures many things (including high end televisions and some of its game consoles) in China. They are quite coy about disclosing what percentage, so I don't know where you have read the majority come from Japan.

[tomjen3]

I don't know about you as you grew up in the US but I didn't (I have never been there) but I feel closer to it than I do about my own country.

But when I really look at it, I don't feel connected to any country as much as to history and the ideals of Silicon Valley.

So to me it seems to weird to hold the place I was born as anything special.

[cubicle67]

(australian here)

counter-point first: I've heard good things about Sears stuff, but it's not available here

I've never considered American manufacturing to be high quality or premium. My experience is mostly based on American cars - which tend to have appalling build quality and reliability - and a few "made in America" bits I have, all of which are pretty average.

I tend to associate American manufacturing with things like welding huge bits of iron together. durability? sure. attention to detail and care? not so much

[yardie]

American here. Most of American things of quality you wouldn't be able to buy in a consumer version. You can tell the quality of a product by the warranty that is assigned to it. For example most of the Sears Kenmore stuff have something like 10 year warranties. The Craftsman tools have a lifetime warranty.

Most of the American bits never really leave the US because logistics cost the same everywhere. A big heavy washing machine from china loses its cost advantage once shipping and duties are added to the price. A high-end laptop has most of the price in labor and parts. Shipping costs next to nothing for it.

American cars haven't really impressed me. For a while I also questionned the quality; why settle for something with a 3 year warranty when the japanese and koreans have 7 and 10 years. I believe the American car makers have learned a lot about this after getting trounced in the market. They have been extending there warranties and covering parts that weren't covered before.

But it's not until you get into the really high-tech stuff that American builds even show up. Like 7-10 layer circuit boards, aerospace equipment, military hardware, and extreme environment hardware. To put it another way, the Americans, Japanese, and Germans sell the equipment to China to build the stuff they sell.

[Steko]

Right, let's blame Apple for the decline in American manufacturing.

Now combine that with this article and people like Mike Daisey's views that Apple is somehow uniquely responsible to blame for the plight of blue collar workers in China.

Apparently Apple is the cause of all pain in the world. Sheesh I thought they just sold electronics.

[jstevens85]

Apple is an international company. They sell stuff outside of the US. Why would someone living in Europe/Asia/Africa give a shit about American jobs?

[bbgm]

I want quality products at a reasonable cost. If Apple can maintain that quality with Chinese manufacturing, then all power to them.

[curt]

Even if Apple wanted to the regulations surrounding manufacturing, especially on a large scale are crazy. Can't tell you how many operations are moving overseas not because of the labor costs but because of the bureaucracy, paperwork, EPA, and regulations in the US.

[diogenescynic]

An interesting hypothetical scenario is one where Apple had all iPhones assembled in the US. Assuming that the wage of American workers is ten times as high as those of their Chinese counterparts, the total assembly cost would rise to $68 and total manufacturing cost would be pushed to approximately $240. Selling iPhones assembled by American workers at $500 per unit would still leave a 50% profit margin for Apple. In this hypothetical scenario, the iPhone could contribute to US exports and reduce the US trade deficit, not only with China, but also with the rest of world. More importantly, Apple would create jobs for US low-skilled workers: http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/6335

[sneak]

Except that in the USA it's probably illegal to fire workers who won't work 16 hour days and it's also illegal to expose workers to toxic solvents.

OSHA and the associated regulations legislated us right out of the market.

[diogenescynic]

>Except that in the USA it's probably illegal to fire workers who won't work 16 hour days and it's also illegal to expose workers to toxic solvents.

Wait, you think this is bad?

Do you really think America can only compete on being the lowest cost manufacturer?

And the scenario shows, the iPhone could be manufactured in the US and still be profitable (50% margin).

[cageface]

The endgame of all this could be that no country anywhere can enforce any environmental or labor laws because corporations will just move somewhere more desperate for jobs.

[temphn]

The thing is that there's an optimal amount of such laws. Not too little, not too much. If businesses couldn't move, there'd be no pressure to junk bad laws. Also, the fact that a business can move from a community is a good thing, as otherwise people forget that regulations and taxes can only be increased to a certain point before killing the golden goose.

Finally, there aren't a finite number of businesses; those who think the EPA's regulations are reasonable should have no problem starting a US business to demonstrate the point.

[curt]

It's not the laws themselves (with some exceptions) but the paperwork required to comply. For example Singapore has many of the same laws as the US but they really focus on streamlining the bureaucracy so it's not as heavy a burden.

[cageface]

How specifically do they go about this? Bureaucracy is notoriously resistant to streamlining. Does having a more authoritarian government make this easier?

[curt]

No, they hire the best and brightest to work for the government and hold them accountable. Something western governments refuse to do with government workers usually because of union/civil service work rules.

But what ends up happening then is that Singapore for example actively works to import entrepreneurs because their best and brightest went into government.