[solipsist]

  Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science.
  And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to
  appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of
  50% female developers.

Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up.

[yummyfajitas]

If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up.

Would he not need solid evidence if he were pushing the politically correct answer?

[ryandvm]

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy.

Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle.

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

[solipsist]

  Why aren't we just as concerned
  that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

[cheez]

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university.

Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie)

Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup

Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either.

School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER.

Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping!

So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field.

Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build.

Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes.

Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.

[Perceval]

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you.

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek.

Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.

[Klonoar]

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek.

Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex will get untold amounts of hell for dabbling in tech early on, a female will probably get it worse.

You also have to note that culturally, there is the "nerd" phenomenon backing guys being interested in tech. If a young woman decides to get into tech, she doesn't get the same label as a guy does, she's often labeled by her peers (which can be fairly brutal) as a loser, outcast, or just "not one of the girls".

Now, given that last point, take a female developer who's young and just trying to get into things: you'll never quite be "one of the guys", and by choosing this vocation you're throwing up a flag that states you're fine to never be "one of the girls". That's not a fun combination to go through your youth with.

[Perceval]

You seem to be placing the blame for girls not going into to tech on other girls. Are girls' peer groups really the ones holding back girl in IT?

I don't see the "nerd phenomenon backing guys being interested in tech." It's a negative stereotype, not a positive one. Negative social stereotypes don't encourage people to take on an identity/vocation. No one sits at home, looking at the stereotype nerds on TV shows saying, "Gosh, I'd like to be a weakling with no style, no charisma, no popularity, no girlfriends, but a really sweet nitrogen cooling system for my computer."

[thricedotted]

Exactly the point I wanted to make, but pithier. Kudos.

[Klonoar]

Ah, appreciate you saying that. There was a part of me that was hesitant to post it as I'm not a female, but just going on what I see with siblings/friends. Glad to know I'm not totally off base.

[thricedotted]

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk.

Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing professional jobs as well as any man. Thanks, society! But since this change just happened recently, it is not unreasonable for there to still be fields that are male-dominated, despite the fact that women are just as able to work successfully in these fields. This is what gives us (a).

However, now that the floodgates have opened, women would really like to get into tech! But first, there's everything that cheez mentioned -- society's subtle socialization of women into their proper gender role. Boys are expected to tinker with and possibly break their toys, girls should be combing doll hair. And later, the boys who are nerds almost always find a nerd clique...which is almost entirely comprised of other boys. And the girl who wants to bond with somebody over her nerddom? All the boys are scared of her, for she is GIRL, a separate and incomprehensible breed from BOY. And there's condition (b).

Personal anecdote time: all of my friends (which is stretching it) in high school were guys because the other girls at my school thought computers and programming and video games were "a guy thing". and even among this group, I only had one who truly respected me (who brought me into the circle in the first place) -- to the rest, I was the token female to be awkward around and bounce sexist jokes off of. During that time, I was a huge tomboy and a huge jerk -- not because I don't like doing typically femme-y things, like wearing makeup and dresses, but because I felt like I'd be more accepted if I wore guy clothes and made dick jokes and, yes, sometimes even objectified women and acted homophobic (but only for men, because lesbians are hot, har har) for the sake of humor. Even being more "guy-like", though, never really earned me any respect -- even if I laughed at their jokes about "dumb bitches" and made my own, the fact remained that I was still born without a penis and could therefore never really relate. It was only after I got to college that I was able to recognize my disgusting attitude for what it was and realize that it was possible to be both femme and a CS major, though that would have earned me no love from most of my HS "friends".

tldr, men do have to overcome the barrier of being socialized to like sports and fast cars and what-have-you, but once they do, they've at least found more of their kind. Women, on the other hand, face that barrier two-fold -- both from outside and within the community, and that really, really sucks.

But I'm so glad that this conversation is happening, because I really do think that making the tech industry more welcoming to women is important -- and if it turns out that you're right, that at the end of the day more boys and few girls go into tech anyway, at least we're still a kinder, better, more accepting community. What do we have to lose from that?

[Perceval]

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of women into it was natural early on—it wasn't a field that women had to fight as hard to get into.

http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/

I know several women in their 60s now, friends of my mother, who were early systems analysts for IBM or otherwise involved in the tech field. IT is a field that women have left, not that they have been excluded from.

Second, taking from my mother's experience, she did have to fight her way into a field that was male dominated: graphic design. But that field is no longer dominated by males. Look at graphic design degrees awarded and you can see that women outnumber men now. Is graphic design somehow fundamentally different from IT? Are people in IT inherently more sexist than people in graphic design? They both use computers to do their jobs. But graphic design sees growth in the number of women, while IT sees a decline.

I just don't buy the early socialization argument, because there are just as strong pressures on boys to not be nerds. Simply because there are more male losers doesn't make having a 'clique' of losers an advantage over a loser girl. It's still discouraging whether or not you have a bunch of other negative charisma, zero social skill geeks to be miserable with.

As for your personal anecdote, I don't see how that's unique to tech at all. It sounds just like everyone else's shitty high school experience: you endure shitty fucked up social situations in order to fit in. Would have been no different had you been interested in other things and been in a different clique. If it hadn't been guys saying retarded fucked up shit, it would have been girls saying retarded fucked up shit.

[thricedotted]

I disagree with much of what you say, but because I don't think continued debate will get either of us anywhere at this point, I'd like to return to the last point I made, which was: at the end of the day, does it matter whether or not gender binaries and socialization and sexism is the reason there aren't more women in tech? It sure as hell is a reason the women who ARE in tech are dissatisfied. Does it matter that sexism isn't unique to the tech field and therefore can't a barrier to entry, so nothing needs to be done about it? I still hold that it's a barrier to entry, though one that will hopefully be torn at just as it was in other fields (do you think feminists in those communities didn't also have these conversations?), but even if it wasn't, does that mean it's perfectly okay for these attitudes to continue?

The answer is no, so this debate is moot. If we fix the sexism problem and women keep shying away from CS/the tech industry, then a point to you. As for me, I'll just be happy that we all respect each other more from it.

[cheez]

You're definitely right. I know there are women who got into the field when it was just starting because it was considered clerical.

I was chatting with a school headmistress last weekend and she said that she was into computers but once she had the kids and tried to come back, technology had moved so fast that she had to change careers to education. Somehow, I get the feeling she would have done fine anyway but that's another anecdote. Places with paternity leave probably also have similar problems in high tech fields.

My sister is an excellent IT project manager but I don't think she has ever talked to me about how it was for her as a kid. What I do remember is that she had very few friends and those who she did hang around with were techno geeks.

I think female involvement in graphic design can be neatly explained by society's gentle nudging. It's "creative" work. It's drawing. It's art. Stuff women are "supposed" to be good at.

[cheez]

Thanks for your post, it was very enlightening.

[cheez]

You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.

[romey]

I could say the same things (in general) about guys who are deeply interested in science and tech:

Toddler/Preschool: Gifts of balls, sports cards, action figures, etc.

School/Teenager: Come on bro, get off the computer and play some sportsball! Don't be a nerd! Come on bro, lets watch football and drink beer!

Even on TV, when they show engineers and scientists, they are almost never cool or desirable.

Basically, I seriously doubt that anyone becomes an engineer because it's the "cool" thing to do, or in any way socially optimal; it seems to be based more on a child's innate proclivities, and a lot to do with the type of parents they have. To me, this seems to be the same problem that has many asking "Why aren't there more black engineers?" Well, in many cases, it's simply because the parents of kids who would become engineers don't have the resource, interest, or knowledge of how to foster these abilities.

I applaud you on encouraging your daughter's interests. With more parents like you, we'll surely see the a more diverse field in the future.

[dpark]

Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)

[cheez]

The guy I was replying to said:

> Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle.

I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.

[dpark]

Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.

[tsotha]

>Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

You might want to provide some support for this before you start demanding evidence from other people.

[k33n]

> Most people would agree with this.

I doubt it. And I don't really find his answer controversial at all.

[dhume]

Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

Keep in mind when looking for the cause of the lopsided male-female split that it happens well before they even start university.

[michaelcampbell]

> Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

> If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up.

I find these 2 statements, back to back, presented in a serious context about the most amusing thing I've seen in a long, long time.

[rokhayakebe]

The keyword is here is perhaps. What are these obstacles that you speak off?

[uncr3ative]

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I was intruding. And I think if you were to walk into a room with 99 women you would feel awkward as well. From my perspective, as a woman software engineer - there is no "perhaps" about it.

[yummyfajitas]

Women faced this barrier in every traditionally male field - law, medicine, biology, business, etc. It did not prevent women from achieving parity.

Why does this barrier prevent women from entering CS, math and physics only?

[michaelcampbell]

So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender?

What's the next one?

[thricedotted]

...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men.

It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they will be talking about their interests which might not coincide with yours (but oftentimes coincide with you and people of your sex), and so you're not sure how to broach conversation with them. The fact that you feel like an intruder, unwanted or invisible, because you're not in ~the clique~ and therefore shouldn't be there.

The fact that somebody would respond to this, and put quotes around "obstacle", because how could any of those things be an obstacle at all?

I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

[michaelcampbell]

You presume that you are prejudged, and that's bad, and then come out with something like this?

> I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

Seriously?

[thricedotted]

Yes, because the comment you made that I responded to on the first place struck me as bafflingly insensitive to the point that was being made: that this intimidation is an obstacle in and of itself. If such a situation sounds like an entirely foreign experience to you, I am inclined to believe that you have never found yourself or can imagine yourself in a similar situation, thereby belying a high measure of privilege.

[tsotha]

That's it?

Huh. After all these years I find women really are the weaker sex.

[rokhayakebe]

rated various women. From my experience women rate other women even more so then we do (so you are different in this manner), and most women I talk to know shit more about sports than I ever will. Awkwardness isn't an obstacle, it's an inconvenience. You are here, so other women can do the same.

[uncr3ative]

Sorry, I obviously wasn’t clear. I never intended to say that I was "embarrassed by my gender" as Michael seemed to believe and I don’t think that the guys in that classroom were participating in offensive sexist behavior (most of the time they weren’t.) And women of course rate other women and men, both sexually and just with stereotypes. However, all that doesn’t change that slight feeling of intrusion, and isolation. I’ve worked in various companies now, and on every team I’ve been on (even teams as large 30 developers) I was the only woman, so it was good practice walking into that classroom in the university. Sometimes, it is still a little lonely.

But here I am coding at a prestigious gaming company, and I agree, a lot of other women could do the same. But, if I wasn’t so determined– if during university I didn’t think that programming starcraft was the definition of cool – I might have decided it wasn’t worth it to go into that room every day. I could have gone to study biology or architecture or psychology and not felt the least bit awkward. And I had girl friends who I would convince that programming is “dead useful” by automating something for them. I would try to convince them they should sign up to some programming class and they would say “nah, too much testosterone.”

I’m really not trying to make men into “villains” or “creeps” with this monolog. In fact, I’m trying to say that before we get to the sexist creeps who assume I can’t code because “you’re a girl” or that I won’t be able to understand what they are talking about because I’m not the type who can do math… Before all that, you have to walk into a room where you are different and alone. I realize that this is what it feels like to be a minority. As a white woman it isn’t something I’m used to feeling, but every time I stepped into a CS classroom I definitely did. Obviously none of these are obstacles that are impossible to overcome, and if women had no choice in the university – I’m sure most of them would be perfectly capable of walking into a room full of guys and getting a degree in CS. Some of them might even enjoy it.

PS thanks thricedotted for explaining the intruder/invisible feeling better

[rokhayakebe]

I sympathize with you. What needs to be done is help these women be more confident and know they have every right to be where they are.

You think women are minority. Try being Black, from Africa, with an accent, and without a college degree. So believe when I say I feel you.

There are dicks everywhere. However I learned very early that 99% of what's holding people is within themselves and not the rest of the world. That goes for you, me, and every other minority.

[uncr3ative]

I agree that instilling confidence that they have a right to be where they are and the ability to learn and be what they want is key.

I don't think women are generally a minority - I only ever feel like one when I start working with new teams at work or classrooms in the university. But being a minority everywhere you go -ugh- that sense of isolation sounds really tough :(