[uncr3ative]

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I was intruding. And I think if you were to walk into a room with 99 women you would feel awkward as well. From my perspective, as a woman software engineer - there is no "perhaps" about it.

[yummyfajitas]

Women faced this barrier in every traditionally male field - law, medicine, biology, business, etc. It did not prevent women from achieving parity.

Why does this barrier prevent women from entering CS, math and physics only?

[michaelcampbell]

So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender?

What's the next one?

[thricedotted]

...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men.

It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they will be talking about their interests which might not coincide with yours (but oftentimes coincide with you and people of your sex), and so you're not sure how to broach conversation with them. The fact that you feel like an intruder, unwanted or invisible, because you're not in ~the clique~ and therefore shouldn't be there.

The fact that somebody would respond to this, and put quotes around "obstacle", because how could any of those things be an obstacle at all?

I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

[michaelcampbell]

You presume that you are prejudged, and that's bad, and then come out with something like this?

> I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

Seriously?

[thricedotted]

Yes, because the comment you made that I responded to on the first place struck me as bafflingly insensitive to the point that was being made: that this intimidation is an obstacle in and of itself. If such a situation sounds like an entirely foreign experience to you, I am inclined to believe that you have never found yourself or can imagine yourself in a similar situation, thereby belying a high measure of privilege.

[michaelcampbell]

Then I can only be similarly baffled by your level of naivete, or..., and I suspect this is more likely; you're simply trolling, and actually are nowhere near as baffled as you say you are, and are just using hyperbole to make a point.

[tsotha]

That's it?

Huh. After all these years I find women really are the weaker sex.

[rokhayakebe]

rated various women. From my experience women rate other women even more so then we do (so you are different in this manner), and most women I talk to know shit more about sports than I ever will. Awkwardness isn't an obstacle, it's an inconvenience. You are here, so other women can do the same.

[uncr3ative]

Sorry, I obviously wasn’t clear. I never intended to say that I was "embarrassed by my gender" as Michael seemed to believe and I don’t think that the guys in that classroom were participating in offensive sexist behavior (most of the time they weren’t.) And women of course rate other women and men, both sexually and just with stereotypes. However, all that doesn’t change that slight feeling of intrusion, and isolation. I’ve worked in various companies now, and on every team I’ve been on (even teams as large 30 developers) I was the only woman, so it was good practice walking into that classroom in the university. Sometimes, it is still a little lonely.

But here I am coding at a prestigious gaming company, and I agree, a lot of other women could do the same. But, if I wasn’t so determined– if during university I didn’t think that programming starcraft was the definition of cool – I might have decided it wasn’t worth it to go into that room every day. I could have gone to study biology or architecture or psychology and not felt the least bit awkward. And I had girl friends who I would convince that programming is “dead useful” by automating something for them. I would try to convince them they should sign up to some programming class and they would say “nah, too much testosterone.”

I’m really not trying to make men into “villains” or “creeps” with this monolog. In fact, I’m trying to say that before we get to the sexist creeps who assume I can’t code because “you’re a girl” or that I won’t be able to understand what they are talking about because I’m not the type who can do math… Before all that, you have to walk into a room where you are different and alone. I realize that this is what it feels like to be a minority. As a white woman it isn’t something I’m used to feeling, but every time I stepped into a CS classroom I definitely did. Obviously none of these are obstacles that are impossible to overcome, and if women had no choice in the university – I’m sure most of them would be perfectly capable of walking into a room full of guys and getting a degree in CS. Some of them might even enjoy it.

PS thanks thricedotted for explaining the intruder/invisible feeling better

[rokhayakebe]

I sympathize with you. What needs to be done is help these women be more confident and know they have every right to be where they are.

You think women are minority. Try being Black, from Africa, with an accent, and without a college degree. So believe when I say I feel you.

There are dicks everywhere. However I learned very early that 99% of what's holding people is within themselves and not the rest of the world. That goes for you, me, and every other minority.

[uncr3ative]

I agree that instilling confidence that they have a right to be where they are and the ability to learn and be what they want is key.

I don't think women are generally a minority - I only ever feel like one when I start working with new teams at work or classrooms in the university. But being a minority everywhere you go -ugh- that sense of isolation sounds really tough :(