[deltasixeight]

If you can move your code and spread it around it is Modular by definition. This is never a bad thing from a design perspective. It is only a bad thing from a complexity and readability perspective.

More likely you think it's a bad thing because your code isn't actually modular. Likely you need one piece of logic but that logic isn't modular so to move it to another location you need to drag a bunch of extra baggage around with it. You wanted a banana but instead you got the gorilla holding the banana and the entire jungle. Sound familiar?

The smallest primitive that is modular is a pure immutable function. If the modules you are moving around are not pure functions then likely your code isn't actually modular.

[sam0x17]

> If you can move your code and spread it around it is Modular by definition.

For it to be truly modular, you also need to be able to use it in multiple contexts. I could take any random 5 lines of a complex function and pull it out into another function in another file, but that doesn't guarantee that this was a smart thing to do in that particular scenario. What I'm saying is there are tons of times when people do this merely to get the linter to pass, instead of for the actual purpose of modularization.

[Jtsummers]

Right.

If A and B are coupled so tightly that one cannot exist without the other, you don't really have two modules. You have one, AB. This is a common problem with improper application of the idea of modularity as well as OO concepts (in particular, breaking things into classes and thinking it creates a module). The latter is particularly pernicious in languages which don't have a clear separation between classes and modules (Java, for instance, or historically I think this has changed).

The reality is that there are two (at least) kinds of modularity. "Syntactic" (I need a better name for this) modularity like Java classes, or C's translation units (why I need a better name). These act as modules, but don't necessarily define a real, proper module. And then there are your real modules which are comprised of the things that must exist together (like in the earlier example), regardless of the project structure or language's notion of a module.

I had a team try to convince me their code was "modular" but their GUI portion was directly tied to the DB portion and other logic. Nothing could be instantiated separately, so it wasn't really modular, it was just using the language and build system's notions of modules to create the illusion of modularity (C++ and VS in their case). In contrast, another team had developed a collection of libraries (C# and VS again) that were used in multiple applications. That was real modularity.

[josephg]

Yes this. With I often think about questions like:

- Is this code useful in other contexts? Are there other contexts where I might want this? (Or someone else might want this?)

- Modules have a clear API boundary

- Modules can be described independently of the code which uses them

- Modules can (and should) have their own testing suite, independent of the test suite of the containing module

There's lots of examples; but you can kind of spot code like this in your projects. It has a property of being disentangled. "This just solves this one specific problem I have with strings / event emitters / random numbers / my database, separate from anything else I'm trying to do". "I kinda want to just document this code separate from the documentation of everything else". "I don't want to pull that whole library in, but can I just steal these 3 functions for this other project?"

[deltasixeight]

> This is a common problem with improper application of the idea of modularity as well as OO concepts (in particular, breaking things into classes and thinking it creates a module).

Exactly! The class is not the smallest unit of modularity. You unionize several pieces of mutable state with several functions (aka methods) in class based programming and if your unionization was a design flaw you're pretty much screwed. To make your code truly modular you need to break it down further. Separate state and function. To go even deeper make the function pure and make state immutable. Abstract mutability to a small unsafe portion of your code.

>The reality is that there are two (at least) kinds of modularity. "Syntactic" (I need a better name for this) modularity like Java classes, or C's translation units (why I need a better name). These act as modules, but don't necessarily define a real, proper module. And then there are your real modules which are comprised of the things that must exist together (like in the earlier example), regardless of the project structure or language's notion of a module.

The only true logic module is a stateless function that is independent of all context. Think on that, that is literally the smallest unit of logic that can be moved around anywhere.

The problem here is how do you program in a way such that even for these functions are easily de-composable and rearranged without necessitating a rewrite in the case where you find the logic needs massive changes?

Use point free programming with pure non-procedural functions solves this. The problem is mutability must happen somewhere and usually this is abstracted to a very small section of your code.

>I had a team try to convince me their code was "modular" but their GUI portion was directly tied to the DB portion and other logic. Nothing could be instantiated separately, so it wasn't really modular, it was just using the language and build system's notions of modules to create the illusion of modularity (C++ and VS in their case). In contrast, another team had developed a collection of libraries (C# and VS again) that were used in multiple applications. That was real modularity.

GUI programming is inherently hard as the state of the GUI is by nature muteable and it's hard to write modular code as a result. However modern programming frameworks generally get around this using the technique I outlined above, see React redux and MVU. https://guide.elm-lang.org/architecture/

[deltasixeight]

Read the 2nd paragraph of my post you replied to. You talk about true modularity and it is addressed in my second paragraph. If you find these problems with your code then the code was Never modular in the first place.

Modular code involves writing code independent of context. One way of doing this is to wrap every expression in a pure functional context. Another way is to make every variable immutable.

> I could take any random 5 lines of a complex function and pull it out into another function in another file, but that doesn't guarantee that this was a smart thing to do in that particular scenario.

Doing this doesn't hurt. There's nothing stupid about it unless you coded everything in a way where it's NOT modular. Procedural programming is usually not modular because the results of a computation depend on the Order of the procedures. Immutable state is isomorphic to an expression so procedural code with immutable state solves the issue.

Let's say I need a function to add 3 numbers. I impliment it like this:

  addThree = func(x, y, z){ return addTwo(x, y) + z}
  addTwo = func(x, y) {return x + y}

You're saying addTwo is unecessary and pointless if it's not reused. I'm saying you can't predict the future, there may be a time where you need addTwo, but if you never need it, it doesn't really matter, you don't lose anything here. Modularity doesn't hurt the structure and organization of the code. It only effects qualitative aspects like how easy is it to interpret understand or read.

[lostcolony]

"it doesn't really matter, you don't lose anything here"

Except you do. It's harder to understand and less readable; and in a real life rather than made up example, addTwo is in some other module entirely and has side effects that are completely invisible (in most languages) when just looking at addThree, making debugging and understanding WTF is going on far harder.

You mention "pure functional context", and yet this whole thread exists under a post about OOP, which is all about state management; it's no good trying to create toy examples that are side effect free to try and dismiss the points being made. Yes, of course pure code is fairly trivial to slice and dice, and the cost of doing so tends to be low (not zero, but low), but that's not really what is being talked about.

Otherwise you're kind of "no true Scotsman"ing this; "if you find these problems with your code than the code was never modular in the first place" - yeah, that's the point. Splitting code doesn't by definition make it more modular.

[deltasixeight]

>Except you do. It's harder to understand and less readable; and in a real life rather than made up example, addTwo is in some other module entirely and has side effects that are completely invisible (in most languages) when just looking at addThree, making debugging and understanding WTF is going on far harder.

You don't lose anything from a hard structural standpoint. Readability and being harder to understand is an opinionated based metric. It can be influenced by how you even name a function. It is a soft metric therefore weaker than the hard one. Additionally I DO mention the qualitative opinionated cost of modularity several times in this thread. So I address it but it is definitively weaker because anyone can have an opposite opinion and say that "in my opinion modular code is more readable"

>You mention "pure functional context", and yet this whole thread exists under a post about OOP,

Did you read the article? The author of the article was not convinced by OOP, he never supported OOP and generally the entire article is critical of OOP. I would say my reply is highly relevant and that you didn't read the article.

>it's no good trying to create toy examples that are side effect free to try and dismiss the points being made.

The examples serve a purpose to illustrate my point not to illustrate a real world example. If you want a real world example look at the react + redux architecture. The gold standard model for all web UIs exactly do what I mention with state management. They completely separate State away from pure functions. The entire web generally follows this model abstracting state management away from even code. Web apps are stateless with the database handling the entire job of state management. Examples of this pattern are EVERYWHERE, the example I gave is a toy example to help you understand not to say "hey this is a real world application." I thought that was obvious, my fault for not being clear on that.

>yeah, that's the point. Splitting code doesn't by definition make it more modular.

Completely and utterly wrong. Splitting code by definition makes it more modular. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modularity

The definition from above says: "Broadly speaking, modularity is the degree to which a system's components may be separated and recombined, often with the benefit of flexibility and variety in use"

If you are "splitting" code then by definition you are separating code which was previously combined. By Definition it is more modular. You really can't argue this point. More likely what's going on here is you have your own personal fuzzy definition of modularity which you are unconciously combining with your opinionated view on what constitutes good code. I am using the english definition not some fuzzy notion of good code so I am definitively right.

Be more exact and formal with your terminology it will lead to much less misunderstandings.

[lostcolony]

From the Wikipedia link you provide - "modularity is the degree to which a system's components may be separated and recombined"

Lines of code != system's components.

It's why we don't split a 20 line function into twenty 2 line functions (where the first line is one of the original, and the second is the call to the next function), and no one would say that doing so has made the code more modular.

This is itself backed by the wikipedia link, 'In software design, modularity refers to a logical partitioning of the "software design" that allows complex software to be manageable for the purpose of implementation and maintenance. The logic of partitioning may be based on related functions, implementation considerations, data links, or other criteria'; what we have done by splitting up the code this way has not helped it be more manageable.

So no, by the definitions you yourself cited, splitting up the code does not translate to more modular code.

[deltasixeight]

>Lines of code != system's components.

Did I say this? No. Does this have anything to do with the conversation? No.

>It's why we don't split a 20 line function into twenty 2 line functions (where the first line is one of the original, and the second is the call to the next function), and no one would say that doing so has made the code more modular.

You think of logic as procedural lines of instructions. Procedural lines of instructions are not modular. If you think like this, none of your code is ever truly really modular. All code should be writable in one line. You split into several lines ONLY for readability, but your core logic should easily be isomorphic to one line code.

If your code doesn't share this isomorphism then none of your code is modular.

Inevitably you have to eventually address the procedural nature of the world in your code. When this case arises you have to abstract this all away to the smallest section of your code as possible.

>what we have done by splitting up the code this way has not helped it be more manageable.

Modularity and Manageability ARE TWO different words with two different definitions.

Wikipedia in this case is just being dumb and fuzzy with it's definitions. Right above your cited link it has an alternative definition that is in direct conflict with the one you stated. Modularity in modular programming is different from modularity in software? Come on. This is stupid.

Let's not play pedantic games here. Modularity and Managability are different. We know this. No need to play games. Combining the two into one thing is a lack of coherence. Be coherent.

When you take one thing and split it into two things. The two things are modules and thus more modular than the one thing. That is simple intuitive and clear.

[sam0x17]

> Doing this doesn't hurt. There's nothing stupid about it unless you coded everything in a way where it's NOT modular.

It does. If I open up an arbitrary Ruby on Rails app for example, it is going to be easier to navigate for example a super fat model file than it is to navigate one that has been divided up into 10s of helpers and companion modules. There are similar scenarios in every other language. Extracting code and moving it somewhere else can truly be a death by a thousand cuts. My rule of thumb is if there aren't at least two places in the code that need to call My Extracted Thing (tm), then it shouldn't be extracted in the first place. If you're being DRY, it's OK to have a long class/file/method/function/module, and it's probably preferable to obfuscating your codebase and making it more difficult to navigate.

[deltasixeight]

>Extracting code and moving it somewhere else can truly be a death by a thousand cuts.

This is not what I mean by modularity. Let me be more specific. The code CAN be seperated and it can be recombined without a structural code rewrite. That is what I mean by modularity. Actually dividing code up and organizing it among different files is an opinionated organization scheme and NOT what I'm talking about.

When you do extract code and move it anywhere it's not exactly "death" it's just harder to read. Structurally the code is still sound. You can meet the requirements without rewriting the code, it's just the code is more complex to understand.

The bad scenario I'm talking about here is when you can't extract code and you can't move it around. When your requirements necessitates logic to be moved around and you can't because code is too coupled with other code. That is more closer to literal death by one cut. You are technically unable to meet requirements with existing code.

The modular primitive that prevents this from happening is the immutable pure function. But it's not a one size fits all solution.

[sam0x17]

Exactly, and what I'm saying is probably over 50% of the time people modularize code, they aren't actually modularizing it in the good sense you are talking about, but in the bad sense where they are just placating the linter without putting any thought into it and calling it "modularizing".

I'm all for modular code and interfaces, but linting rules like "functions must be a maximum of 15 lines long" are stupid and lead to stupid code. That's what my OP was about.