[dcow]

The means at which we arrive upon AA is even suspect:

A: We want equality, why are white people successful?

B: Clearly because they went to a good college.

C: Okay easy, let’s put the underprivileged into good colleges, that should fix ‘er right up.

It doesn't seem like anybody is interested in solving the hard problem of why underprivileged communities aren’t producing good high school graduates. Maybe it has something to do with, IDK, the fact that they’re under served and underprivileged? Maybe primary education is a more important factor than the name at the top of your college transcript? Maybe good communities produce outstanding colleges and universities, not the other way around? Yet we can’t seem to spend money on primary education or figure out how to help struggling communities. Why is that?

[gjhh244]

Exactly. From an European perspective America's obsession with race seems absolutely idiotic. Progressive taxation and major help for poor communities and families regardless of skin colour is obviously the only sensible solution.

[zozbot234]

Racial groups are used as vote banks by the two major parties - that's all there is to it. It has nothing to with wanting to help the poor or improve social cohesion, rather the opposite. A divided society is great for the most incompetent politicians since it provides them an easy way to whip up their constituents against other groups and fish for more votes.

[washadjeffmad]

So change FPTP to ranked choice and end the age of American extremism.

[whythre]

Unfortunately the two parties that hold the reigns of power only stand to lose from such a system... so it isn’t gonna happen.

[curryst]

As an American, I think it's because the treatments for racism are far cheaper and more tolerable than the treatments for poverty. Minorities were kept out of any opportunity to create generational wealth for a long time, due to racism. The problem we need to solve to reverse that is deprivation of generational wealth for decades, not racism from 60 years ago. We don't want to talk about that, though, because most of the solutions end up looking like wealth redistribution. There isn't a way to cheat poverty that I've seen. You either have enough money or you don't, and the only way out is to have enough money.

That's not to say that racism isn't a problem; it is, and we should fix it. It's not going to magically solve problems like graduation rates and income gaps, however.

[dcow]

You could start by closing tax loopholes or introducing a corporate community/education support tax. We leak a lot of wealth IMO that could be captured and distributed to those in need but we don’t because we live in a corrupt society that’s lost it’s backbone.

The supposition we’re exploring in this sub-thread is that AA is not actually a treatment for racism and more of a signal of virtue collectively by society. Real treatment would be to do the expensive and disruptive thing, yes.

[xyzzyz]

You might not be aware of this, but taxation in the US is much more progressive than it is in Europe.

[Spooky23]

Sociologists or whatever correlate good outcome with education. 90% of rich people went to college, therefore college good. That’s true, but one dimensional.

I coach little league, and have been following a group of now ten year olds since 2016 or so. They are all awesome, but the cracks that come from family life and environment are starting to show up. I fear for a few of them.

[UncleMeat]

> It doesn't seem like anybody is interested in solving the hard problem of why underprivileged communities aren’t producing good high school graduates.

The same people who are seeking equity in college are seeking it in high school and elementary school and preschool. The same opponents and arguments come out against them at all of these phases.

I have personal experience with this work in both the elementary school and high school levels. What you are saying here is simply false.

[username90]

So why is affirmative action still needed at college level if they get so much help in all the years before?

[UncleMeat]

They don't get "so much help" in all the years before because of the same forces that resist change at later ages. My family got a lot of hatred and resistance for just pushing back on the idea that it was okay that many of the schools (you can guess which ones) in our district simply never sent a single application to the 3rd grade GT system because their principals didn't believe that any application would ever succeed. They were wrong, of course.

[username90]

So why not fix that problem? You can't make up 12 lost years beginning at College, putting them to compete with people who are that far ahead will just make everyone feel those people are stupid even if it isn't true.

[UncleMeat]

People are trying but facing resistance from the same people who resist it at higher ages. We can’t “just fix that” because any discussion of social equity in education brings out active resistance and even death threats.

[dcow]

Isn't it telling that stronger resistance is met in the younger years where the costs are paid by society and not the individuals? I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. Maybe I’m N=1 but I want to take focus off solving things at the college level and shift to solving things at the community level, explicitly not wholesale rejection of any program that benefits the disparaged. Rather a call to use the limited resources we allocate more effectively.

Let’s take the pessimistic stance that society is actively working to perpetually oppress the lower class and under privileged. If so then the fact that e.g. college AA is allowed to slip by but primary school support is opposed with death threats tells me that fixing primary school education is barking up the right tree or poking the hornets nest, what have you. The real threat is actual competition, which starts in the early years.

I tend to think is less of some insidious underbelly of society working to keep people oppressed and rather a more simple: good primary schools cost money and resources and we are ultimately selfish people who signal virtue yet balk come time to face reality and fund it. But that doesn't really change the conclusion. Democratize access to good primary school education. Increase funding and dismantle broken school district “gerrymandering” of funds allocation (in many cities rich communities produce rich and desirable primary schools because funds are allocated at the neighborhood level so it just perpetuates inequality). In my opinion the most effective thing a single concerned family can do would be to move to an under privileged neighborhood and send their kids to the public school there. Force yourself to confront reality and work to better the education for all. How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Yeah. That’s literally SF in a nutshell for you.

[blackgirldev]

Are you the UncleMeat from Netslaves?

[UncleMeat]

No. I don't know what that is.

UncleMeat is a Zappa album title so I'm certain that others use it as a handle.