[Jenk]

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally.

Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience, where at best it's because they were paid to do it and any fun or whatever altruism is a byproduct.

There are lashings upon lashings of caveats and nuance of course. For a senior role I will still be looking for interpersonal skills not just technical achievement. Part of being a senior is managing yourself, selling your ideas/concerns, mentoring and managing peers, and to some extent managing your managers.

FWIW your side projects are great examples and I'd would be impressed.

[majewsky]

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

[indigochill]

> How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

To be frank, the job of a hiring decision-maker isn't to treat candidates fairly, it's to hire the best fit for the role based on the available signals. It's the job of the candidate to send the best signals they can, however they go about doing that. One thing we'll probe for in our interviews with more experienced candidates is what kind of experience/lessons they have from their former employers, for example, and that can weigh in their favor if there's conceivable overlap with what we're doing.

But I would say don't give any single signal undue weight. Side projects are nice, but not mandatory. Heck, we've even hired people who bombed our programming test because they did okay in the post-test interview (where we'll usually see if they can work out where their solution failed).

[dannyw]

If I am trying to hire someone into my team, I want to make use of all relevant and appropriate signals that can help me make a better decision. I consider side projects to be an appropriate and often valuable signal.

While it is unfortunate that side projects have some selection bias against those who are time-poor, it also feels wrong to me to discriminate against people who can demonstrate their skills and impress through their side projects.

Like, if there are two candidates and all else are equal, and one has a really impressive side project that demonstrates positive traits (whether it's technical expertise, novelty, relevant skills, or communication/community), it's going to be hard to... actively ignore that?

[Osiris]

I am not an ideas guy. Give me a project and I'll build it. Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea.

In 15 years I've had 1 side project. I'm a staff engineer.

[dannyw]

That's fine and great. I never consider side projects to be a requirement, and I believe they never should be.

It's just an additional piece of signal that may help a candidate when relevant; the same way doing great during the interview can help a candidate.

[withinboredom]

I like to ask similar questions. If I was interviewing and that was your answer, I’d be just as impressed. Not everyone needs to be running around building things for fun.

I’ve also had people show me pics of their wood working, mountains climbed, hunting trophies, and even 3d models. I think only one time did someone say they did nothing but take care of their spouse. We talked about that, as I have some experience there. My job is to see how you solve problems and ensure they’re compatible with our problems, along with skill set, etc.

[kybernetikos]

Ideas are not hard to find, even if you don't feel like you have them yourself there are loads of people pursuing side projects who would love help from someone skilled like yourself. I have pages of side project ideas I'd like to explore but will probably never get chance and would be happy to share with someone who might want to do them. Maybe it's more that you don't get very excited by side project type ideas?

The other thing that it might be is rational pessimism. A lot of ideas would take a phenomenal amount of work, and as a senior you probably see those pitfalls and that work right at the beginning, while someone more junior might attack a problem - and eventually succeed precisely because of their irrational optimism.

There was a fun quote on the Alexander long Piano story:

> I think because I was so young I absolutely knew it was totally possible to do, I was fully determined and without consulting any professionals I had no barrier stopping me.

I think the implication there is that if he had consulted professionals, the enormity of what he was taking on might well have crushed the idea.

[mewpmewp2]

If they succeeded, was it irrational optimism, or rather irrational pessimism from the senior person?

I consider myself senior, but I haven't really lost my optimism. I don't think becoming a senior should mean losing optimism. For me it's the opposite. I have much better understanding how to achieve something than before so I have the confidence that I can definitely do it. Maybe it's my personality though, that instead of thinking what the obstacles are, I think how I'm going to visualize and build it.

But I can see how it's different from plenty of other folks, and I think it comes down to personality. Usually I don't or can't think of challenges/weaknesses up front and I like to just dive in. I have been criticized and given feedback of having this flaw, but I have unrelenting belief, that I can solve everything on the fly and for me it has worked in the past.

It's like my mind is unable to bother or concentrate on what the obstacles will be. And it's frustrating because many people expect you to come up with a plan and potential obstacles beforehand while my mind just wants to jump in.

Most advice tells you to think/ask questions/plan before you code, but I code while thinking and iterate on that code. I can't think or concentrate if I'm not coding or actively solving the problem. If I try to plan something, it's half-assed and to me it seems useless and it kind of pretends to be a viable plan and when I finally do it, I do it completely different from the plan anyhow.

Not saying it's the right way, but maybe it's some sort of thing similar to ADHD where I just can't focus without building. And I am very impatient as well so if there's something that needs to be built or solved I will need to jump on it asap and get it solved asap. If I'm not building and am planning I have this increasing anxiety, that I should just be doing it.

[wheelinsupial]

I have a coworker who seems to have some of the tendencies you’ve described. Do you have advice to better work with them?

More specifically:

How do you handle collaborating with other teams if / when your work is a dependency for them delivering theirs?

How do you deal with requirements, use cases, and other pieces of functionality if you just jump into coding?

[williamdclt]

I'm also of the type "Give me a project and I'll build it. Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea". I'd love to see this list (or part of it), I have no idea what it could even look like. Mind sharing?

[kybernetikos]

Send me an email at [e-mail]. I can't promise any of them will be useful to you, but you can have a look and see if anything appeals :-)

[IQunder130]

>Ideas are not hard to find,

> I have pages of side project ideas

Well evidently not for you. But please don't assume everybody's mind or personality works the same way yours does. You were told to not judge everybody by the same subjective yardstick and your immediate response is to.. project and judge everybody by the same yardstick.

The ability to generate side project ideas or the interest in investing huge amounts of time into a project on your own time are largely orthogonal to the ability to actually build things when it's your job.

[kybernetikos]

There was no assumption that other minds work like mine in this respect.

The point I evidently failed to get across was that there are lots of ideas around and you don't need to generate them yourself. People who like generating ideas generate far more than they can hope to work on and often would love to see others carry them forward.

[CapsAdmin]

I'm a side projects type guy, but maybe one downside of having active side projects is that it might interfere with work? As in stealing mental capacity and wanting to go home to work on your current side project

This has happened to me sometimes.

It depends on how much time you spend on side projects I guess. It also helps for me to have a fixed work schedule.

[OJFord]

Having inactive side projects (as in never started, or a tiny bit ages ago) interferes at least 'emotionally' for me. Sometimes I can't stop thinking about an idea I want to work on, excited to 'go home' (i.e. stop working) and work on it, but then by the end of the day I'm too tired, if not physically then of sitting or computers, and cook, eat, and sleep instead.

For a while indoor 'cycling home' as I did when I went into an office more worked well to delineate the day, shower, and get on with something of my own feeling refreshed. I still do it, but I suppose I'm used to the feeling or whatever, I don't really find the same benefit any more.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Depends on what you prioritize. Sometimes I feel like work gets in the way of my side projects.

[tshanmu]

I used to think that I am not an ideas person and it turns out that I do have enough ideas for side projects. I just reject most of my ideas as 'that would not work as a product'. Then, I just started tinkering with an existing product and add some what if features to it and reduce it to a prototype ignoring it will work at all... That seems to get me started on new things... ymmv...

[ricardobeat]

It depends a lot on what field you are in. For consumer-facing, web or mobile products, engineers who are able to speak the product language, collaborate on planning and feature development are highly valuable. That requires some investment into product and design skills, and it's a lot easier to start onto that path with side projects.

[QuercusMax]

It's taken me a long time to come to terms with this fact, but I (also a staff swe) am not a great idea factory. But if you have a problem you need solved, I can absolutely make that happen, and come up with creative solutions.

[egfx]

Yeah you say that and it may work to get past your filter but then you’ll still send the candidate to do the generic code test or the create a pizza app challenge as the real firewall. So it doesn’t matter to do side projects. They will only move the bar higher. Your better off being good at pop quizzes.

[ljm]

If two candidates are equal and the tie-breaker is that one ran a side project in their spare time, is that not an immediate disadvantage to the otherwise excellent, hireable candidate who didn't have that?

Meanwhile, if you ignore the side project, that candidate isn't disadvantaged as a result. They're just given the same consideration as the other candidate, not more and not less.

How you choose between the two at that point is perhaps more difficult, but the playing field is still level. The single parent still has a fighting chance against the person who has the time and money to do extra work for themselves.

[KallDrexx]

I think this is the wrong question, because candidates are never equal (mostly due to the number of variables involved).

The better question is if one candidate has a strong set of work experience but no side projects, and another candidate has an underwhelming set of work experience but a strong set of side projects, does one get valued over the other or are they given equal weight?

If they aren't given equal weight, do you understand the reasoning why (or is it just because they think side projects are cool and want people like themselves).

[carnitine]

This is just impossible to do, the side projects are on the CV and will influence any decision, it’s not feasible to ignore them. Of course being less accomplished is a disadvantage.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

You could make the same argument about any other aspect of their resume. The reality is that candidates are never exactly the same "except for this one thing." What if one candidate gets to do side projects as part of their job? Should you ignore that?

[simonw]

I remind myself that I've worked with fantastic colleagues who don't run any side projects, and I definitely don't want to miss out on someone like that.

[jawilson2]

When I interview candidates, I ALWAYS take these things into consideration. My best hire was a guy who took some time off after his last job, and the highlight of his previous year was learning a book of Bach piano pieces. It IS, however, hard to not pry too much into personal/family stuff, for HR reasons, e.g. talking with "women who are pregnant or may become pregnant" without giving the impression that pregnancy or child care might be a detriment to hiring. Obviously there are numerous other cases like this as well, unrelated to gender, pregnancy is just the first example that came to mind.

I love hearing about non-professional things. Coding outside of work is actually a negative for me, because I assume you are going to get burnt out. I WANT you to have a life outside of work, because A) you are human and deserve that, and B) you are more productive during work. I'm fine if you take a few days off to run an ultra-marathon, or take off a few hours early to catch your kid's baseball game, or care for a family member, whatever. Well-rounded people are better at writing software, in my experience, and better to work with.

[Jenk]

Yes that's one of the many caveats. I myself have zero time for side projects due to family etc. so I am fully sympathetic.

And side projects are side projects. I was fascinated by a candidate's beer brewing project (there are some very relatable skills in management and organisation, supply chain dependencies, etc) as one example of a non-tech side project.

[bmj]

This is interesting. You say "side project" and I hear "hobby."

(Unless, of course, this candidate was starting a brewery, in which case, that is a hobby turned side project.)

[Jenk]

Yes, they had started their own brewery :)

[koolba]

> How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

There’s nothing unfair about preferring to hire someone who’s personal time is spent working in the same field as their job. All things being equal, I’ll pick that candidate over the alternative as it demonstrates genuine interest in the field as a pursuit, not just a career.

[zrail]

The obvious downside is that you're missing out on more diverse perspectives. People who spend time outside of work on things unrelated to their field, whether that's as a caregiver or unrelated hobbies, will look at the world differently than someone who dedicates most of their time to their craft.

[prepend]

> risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments

This is true and should be considered, but it’s also kind of the part. If the goal is to find the best candidate, then discriminating against people who won’t have as much time to do side projects, read, study and train more, etc will be likely.

I think it’s fair to consider these things and candidates shouldn’t be treated equally in this way.

[j45]

A side project can be as little as 30 minutes or an hour a week, with lots of time spent away from the keyboard thinking about the problem and designing the most effective approach to code the least.

It could be a home automation project or applying tech to another interest.

It’s entirely up to the individual to take initiative in their own self directed learning.

Quality is far more important than quantity.

[ubercow13]

By focusing only on work experience you may discriminate against candidates who have previously been underemployed due to reasons outside their control. I don’t think only taking account of employment history somehow makes hiring totally fair.

[908B64B197]

I treat side projects as a "nice to have"

Some of the best engineers I've worked with had exactly none, and very full lives outside of work. But you could tell they punched above their weight just by looking at the resume.

[catillac]

I’d say that asking if they have anything to show off and not discounting them if they don’t is in bounds. Like extra credit that no one has to do and people can get the job without.

[watwut]

Personally, I found that if I do side projects, I simply burn out in long term. The family is not even necessary for that.

It is really no different then working overtime same amount of hours.

[deregulateMed]

As someone with kids and side projects, I have doubts about "not having time".

I could do 2 hours of productivity after the kids go to sleep and I'd still have 2 hours for entertainment. I exercise too.

So let's make it even more reasonable. How about 30 minutes, 4 times a week?

>Meaningful progress

So then do an hour or 2? I make progress in 30 minutes and sometimes keep going. If the point is for a resume, you could even do a 1 or 2 week sprint.

I suppose you could even work on it while the kids are awake. My kids love Alphablocks.

If you don't have a personal side project, the issue isn't children. It's desire.

[journey_16162]

I work on something which will either be a side project for CV or a small business if I'm lucky - in either case most of the work at the time relates to development. On a typical week I put 30 - 40h into it (I don't work full time so I can afford it) and it still goes so damn slow. And the project is not anything crazy, just a standard Electron desktop app.

I can hardly imagine how someone could build anything at 2h/week. 30 min is barely enough time for the brain to switch gears.

I fully get how someone does not have time for side projects - they have life besides work, while I barely do.

[simonw]

The trick is to cheat: Pick side projects which you know you can make substantial progress on in a small amount of time given your unique set of skills and experiences.

[deregulateMed]

I can either build a consumer friendly embedded project, or I can build one that I need to recompile when it's time to change settings.

Both count for the interview purposes.

[WalterSear]

Now it's not a side project: it's resume building.

[simonw]

Completely disagree: building side projects that you can ship quickly is just a more fun way of doing side projects.

Coincidentally I wrote some notes about resume building a few days ago: https://simonwillison.net/2021/Jul/17/standing-out/

[fernandotakai]

it's not that i don't have time -- i do have time. but i don't want to write code as side projects anymore.

i much rather do something else. play a videogame, read a book, watch series. i already work 8~10h a day, after that, i want chill and think about something else that is not code.

[deregulateMed]

Sure. The parent claimed there wasn't time.

Btw have you considered something drastically different than your current code? Embedded comes to mind, it's half electrical engineering and lots of instant gratification.

But in general, nonfiction books could help you ace an interview. I wowd some people by merely talking taoist philosophy and how despite having diverse skills, there's something to be said about sticking to your role.

[majewsky]

> The parent claimed there wasn't time.

You forgot the second part of my sentence:

> or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance

[sha256kira]

I do find that I have time for side projects even with my wife and I working full time with a one year old but some / most weeks I feel like Im going to drop dead and that is in part because I find myself with little time for exercise and other self care. I just think its worth regurgitating the adage that every child really is different and so is every tech job. My friends that end up working till 9pm and on weekends regularly or have more demanding children are living in completely different realities and my heart goes out to them every day. With all this said my side projects end up being very consuming and not necessarily geared towards looking good on a resume.

[deregulateMed]

I should put an astrik that this is only feasible when working 40 hours a week.

Beyond that and the burnout is real.

[Osiris]

You're right that it's not always about time. Some people, like me, are just idea poor. Or, our brains are so overworked from the day we can't concentrate at 10pm at night enough to do anything coherent.

[shard]

I think it depends on just how senior this position is. Senior developer, sure. VP of engineering, no. Team lead, maybe. If you list side projects, it needs to scale with your position. A VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its own, which then is no longer a side project but a work experience entry in the CV.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Not necessarily. At my last job, when I was being interviewed by the company President, he had a little hexapod robot on the desk. I asked him about it and it was a side project he had. His workday was so focused on managing the business, that he kept it around so he could do at least a little programming every week and keep his feet in the tech side of things.

[sime2009]

> it needs to scale with your position.

Does it? really?

> A VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its own

Why? I don't follow your logic here, or we are using different definitions of side-project.

[dcolkitt]

I disagree. Even if I was hiring a VP of Engineering, I think it’s be cool to know that he had a silly little side project.

The more senior you get, the more the biggest hiring risk becomes sociopathy rather than incompetence. Most VPs of Engineering are basically decent at the skills required for their job. But a lot are duplicitous or machiavellian and aren’t going deploy those skills in a way that’s aligned with the broader organization.

Having a stupid little side project, one that has no tangible business or career upside, is a marker of sincerity. It shows that the person has genuine interests outside raw ambition.

[ManBlanket]

"I don't discriminate. I select the applicant most qualified to repay the loan."

- Algorithm which refuses loans to black people.