[zzleeper]

Perhaps NSO Group should be considered a terrorism-aiding organization. Freeze its assets, track all their employees, backers, etc.

Wonder if they are even helping to hack US government employees through China, etc. (besides just helping to torture dissidents).

[bakuninsbart]

The Israeli government classified Pegasus, the software by NSO currently in the news, as a weapon, thus restricting its exports.

If you look at the list of customers, it quickly becomes clear that they are the same organizations that make the laws.

[AtlasBarfed]

"same organizations that make the laws"

More importantly, they are the ones that decide what laws are enforced.

What is sad is that in America, the law around surveillance and security is largely a nice marketing campaign. Sure, you have rights that protect you from the government.

But practically speaking the government won't enforce them, doesn't stop its employees from abusing them even for personal drama, undermines or stops dead any lawsuits by saying the discovery is impossible due to "national security", or will invent terms like "enemy combatant" and then apply them to its own citizens to bypass even the constitution. It will setup "oversight courts" that rubberstamp everything and have no real power or regulatory function/safeguard.

The result of this is that each presidential election is becoming truly dangerous to the opposition. If a McCarthyism movement takes over either party that's in power with the modern surveillance infrastructure, legal "precedents" established by Bush in the war on terror, the confirmation of those powers by the Obama administration holding onto them and continuing funding of infrastructure, undermining of judicial powers, rote acceptance by the people at large, and propaganda outlets available to push messaging, and huge amounts of institutional mores and standards thrown out in the Trump administration, the opposition has real motivation to feel an existential threat.

[sorokod]

From an radio interview with NSO spokesman ( an ex spokesman for the IDF ), all sales require the Israeli MoD approval.

[vmception]

Is that more of a notification form or an actual collaborator process with a tribunal?

[azernik]

The Ministry of Defense has a strong inclination to approve any such requests. It's a hassle for the company in question, but the system is set up to encourage inflow of foreign capital to build up and maintain the defense industry.

[secfirstmd]

Also great opportunities for backdoor access...

[sorokod]

In the same interview the spokesman said that some companies choose to avoid it by operating from offices outside of Israel (Bulgaria and Cyprus were mentioned). This seems to imply that the process is burdensome.

[vmception]

Burdensome could be as simple as there being some transparency in a completely simple notification process. Doesn’t tell much.

Sometimes I avoid listing directors of a new corporation by forming an LLC and privately filing with the IRS to treat it as a C-Corp

Doesn't mean the regulations were tough, but still burdensome in some small way

[JumpCrisscross]

> If you look at the list of customers, it quickly becomes clear that they are the same organizations that make the laws

Israel's unicameral, sovereign, supreme state body, the Knesset [1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset

[lupire]

no, its customers are foreign governments. its world governments against world people, not nation vs nation.

[ashtonkem]

“State backed terrorist group” is a classification that exists, although it’s highly unlikely to be used here for obvious reasons.

[ehsankia]

I mean Saudi Arabia literally murdered a American journalist and hacked the cellphone of an American businessman, yet they're still allies. So....

[flyinglizard]

The biggest customers for these companies are Western governments. You’re not going to take away their toys.

[igorzx31]

Their biggest customers are middle eastern governments according to the WaPo article. US certainly has bought the software but it's mostly Saudi, UAE, Qatar, etc. US has NSA so they don't really need some software. Middle eastern powers dont have the same type of technical expertise to develop their own in-house.

[h1fra]

So should we consider the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization?

edit: the tone is lost via internet; my own opinion on this: yes, it is.

[JumpCrisscross]

> So should we considered the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization

This statement needs the "we" defined to be meaningful.

If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state. If "we"` is e.g. China, probably no, because words have meanings and the arms of recognized foreign states don't conduct terrorism, they do espionage and they do war. If "we" is a freshman dorm room, then, of course, the NSA is a terrorist organization alongside the student government.

[dragonwriter]

> > So should we considered the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization

> If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state.

Its perhaps worth noting that “terrorism” originally exclusively denoted action by the State against its own subjects, though it was within a few years expanded to include other activities.

[JumpCrisscross]

> “terrorism” originally exclusively denoted action by the State against its own subjects

Correct, in the French Revolution, I believe. There are a variety of definitions of terrorism. The common elements seem to be the (a) peacetime use (b) of violence (c) against non-combatants (d) as a political tool. There also seems to be an unspoken requirement that it occurred after the formation of modern states (otherwise almost all of the preceding human history was terrorism and the word gets normalized); the French Revolution is a useful line.

The NSA targets non-combatants (c) in peacetime (a). It does not use violence (b), though it does enable it (⅓b). It does not do so for domestic political aims (to any proven degree); the degree to which it does so abroad depends on where one draws the line between politics and geopolitics. (The CIA, in contrast, engages in all four overseas.)

When an organization that has done terrorism becomes a terrorist organization is another question.

[vmception]

Okay that settles it, the word terrorism has so many conflicting and overlapping contexts that it is useless

[r00fus]

> If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state.

Some here in the states don't exactly feel like the people running the USG have the people's best interests at heart. Common folk across countries probably have more in common with each other than with the ruling elite.

State-sponsored terrorism is a thing - and has been for a LONG time. And US citizens are targets as well as non-citizens.

[vmception]

It requires indoctrination to believe the US as an aggregate sovereign brand functions with the interest of US people in mind.

Nothing about US foreign policy suggests that. Very little about the Federal government’s domestic policy does.

[blackearl]

Is this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha"? Both are despicable.

[whymauri]

Exactly, lol. Not sure if the GP comment is trying to imply some sort of good comes out of the NSA.

[freeflight]

There comes good out of the NSA, at least good for the US like stealing IP and patents for American companies [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...

[igorzx31]

Ummm, stopping terror attacks is pretty good.

[tomrod]

There is a community on reddit called "self-aware wolves" that narrowly identifies a much broader phenomenon: there are many elements of modern society which are generally tolerated but not morally permissible. This is a representative instance.

[beebeepka]

Yes, we should

[ashtonkem]

Yes. We should.

[bobthechef]

Does terrorizing citizens through illegal spying and mass surveillance constitute terrorism? Or does only setting off bombs in public spaces count?

[PeterisP]

There would need to be some actual violence involved to constitute terrorism. If you spy on some journalist and then us that info to catch him and cut him in pieces while he's still alive, then the dismemberment may be considered terrorism and the spying was aiding that terrorism; if you spy on many people and the end result is just that some officers laugh about their naked photos or deny them jobs or disallow crossing borders, then that's just "ordinary" mass surveillance with no relationship to terrorism.

[throwaway210222]

Once you too have had the misfortune of a bomb going off near your family, you will know the answer.

[igorzx31]

The NSA does not illegally spy. Congress has given them large authorizations to collect data and they need FISA approval before tapping Americans. 99.9% of the good work that NSA does will never be seen by the public.

[throwaway675309]

How quickly we forget the massive warrantless wiretapping that occurred under the umbrella of the patriot act.

[ashtonkem]

Terrorism aiding, they said.

[flyinglizard]

1. There are many, many more Western countries other than the US.

2. Even if they develop their own tools and research their exploits, using NSO provides a layer of plausible deniability and hiding behind someone else's fingerprint (think about the command and control servers, for example).

3. Even if they develop their own stuff, most governments have multiple arms which can use these tools (think about FBI, CIA, NSA, various military intelligence branches), and they tend not to share between them. This makes smaller government branches which don't have the resources and expertise of the others (think DEA, ATF...) buy from 3rd parties.

4. Zero days are a scarce resource, if I ran an agency I'd rather use someone else's every day and keep my own just for the special stuff.

In summary, it's exceedingly appealing for bodies like the Dutch police to use NSO tools and NSO's association with the Saudis and other provides a convenient masking to their operations.

[input_sh]

Western governments mostly make their own. Other with less resources buy off-the-shelf products.